Ok, one thing at a time. You may be at or near the statute of limitations then... at which case, you don't have to pay at all. Honestly, for this I'd talk with an atty in your state and not just rely on posts here. That'd be my first concern. If the SOL has passed, then you don't owe the debts. If you're close they could always try to sue you. I don't know if you've created a novation (new agreement) by offering 5K. I'm not a lawyer...:)

Look, there are a lot of thoughts on validation. I'd talk to the atty about the SOL and you can also ask about the validation letter.

Just to answer your other questions: If they answered the validation: I'd talk with an atty. Seeing a trend? My collection agency didn't answer and at the third letter they sent me 3 different letters from 3 different supervisors with a notation that they would no longer be coming after me and that the tradelines would be cleared entirely.

The credit you dispute directly with the bureaus. They give you instructions and forms. You can do it in a letter. Read Michael's info and it'll explain this. This is basic and easy. I usually did 1-2 at a time. there are differing thoughts on this.

Course, if (after you talk w/an atty) you want to just settle it out (pay them part) then you can. It the SOL isn't up, of course. This is easy. They're happy. Just make sure to get an agreement to remove all derogatory info completely. Paid in full would not be satisfactory. Nothing on your reports from the collection agency would be what you want. Michael has a letter for this. You could copy it and if you want, ask the atty if it looks good. It's worked for all of us.

Oh, the other info like "cause of action" is to let you and others know that you can actually take action against them. Amazingly, most people don't even know they have so many rights. Pain, you bet it would be. But it's available. Sometimes, just letting them know you know your rights makes them more reasonable.

If you want to leave your email, I'd be happy to answer some offline too. Hope this helps. You have a lot going on :)

If I were you I'd just concentrate on whether or not the SOL has passed. I paid several debts I didn't need to because I didn't know about this.

Verify is what credit bureaus do. Validate is with the creditor/ collection agency.

If the bureaus verify you can keep disputing or try to get the creditor to remove it. If they validate you could do a negotiated settlement including removal of derogatory info.

Last line of defense: suck it up. Yep. Course, you could move your address to NY and only suck it up for 5 not 7 years.

Course, by not doing anything we suck it up anyway.

You guys all have some good points and I am certainly not a lawyer... and this approach is VERY new to me so I don't even begin to think I know all the nuances to the law.. but

Can you answer why the letters worked if they shouldn't have? I still don't understand, with all the debate, if Michael's letters aren't supposed to work, why did they?

Do you guys use other methods with collection agencies? Besides negotiated settlements? Appreciate your input :)

Oh, good point. Judgments, from what I've read, are a different beast. Once they've got a judgment on you you're screwed. You could always go after the judgment, but in Ga the SOL is only 1 year.

I wanted to go after a judgment because I was never served and the creditor had gotten a default judgment... but the 1 year Sol was up.

Validate-a debt that was sold to another company. For instance, a student loan that was sold to another lender therefore it is now marked as a paid collection. Which really sucks because it's paid. If you ask them to validate the debt (with the hopes that they don't respond or say they are longer able) so you can use this as proof for the dispute to the bureau, what do you do then? Of course this is after you have already disputed with the bureau as "not mine" and it comes back verified? I know you don't have all the answers but I thought I would ask. Thanks, it's just a game. Whoever has the most time and energy will eventually win! Can you post the yahoo group info, I can't find it.

Is is a private lender or what?

We live similar lives. I have a Sallie Mae that I consolidated to Direct loans. Sallie Mae went late during consolidation but I was told all would be fine if I sent in a forbearance request ANYTIME before the consolidation happened. So I did, at my leisure. I was told it would post retroactively. It did, and I also ate late 90+ on my reports. They didn't tell me that. Then, the loan consolidated (or I could've used the rehab process and in a year gotten my Sallie Mae credit cleared). *&*(^%^$%^ Sallie Mae doesn't give a hoot that it's not fair (even though they agreed that it's not fair). I even have a confirmation that I owed no payments during that time. The 3 stooges ignored that in my request for verification.

I'm still doig the bureau b.s. I even have real errors, dates, a duplicate. I'm still after the bureaus. I had thought about trying this since Sallie Mae has sent me 2 of my promissory notes back so I would guess validation would be difficult. However, my thinking is that I did take out these loans (whereas w/a collection company I didn't). To me, there is a big difference.

So I haven't sent validation requests to Sallie Mae because they say "under penalty of law I do attest....truth". I did think of a softer approach of asking for validation of the late thing... but not denying the whole loan. I'm still at the bureau stage, though. Haven't exhausted all avenues yet. We'll see.

I'm guessing they would just send me a printout of their computer screens. I'm much more aggressive w/ a collector or creditor than I am with the US Govt backed loan. :( I also heard since Sallie Mae is US backed, it's not subject to the Fair credit reporting act, though I'm not certain on this one.

I've eaten this for 3 years now and I have family in NY. If I can't get if off the bureaus, I was just going to change my residence to NY in a year and a half and let the computer process delete it at the 5 year mark. Then my report is pretty clean.

And to be honest, I have 8 new credit cards with pretty good terms and reasonable limits. I'm concentrating my efforts on raising limits and improving terms. My credit cleaning is pretty much done. I just post to try and help because I've used some funky methods and they worked.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/credit-repair

you'll have to register to get into it. There are several guys who seem well-versed in this. Look for Due Process. He has some funky views but his methods seem to work. :)

Marie, I keep asking the question about getting a NY address if between 5+7 years all over a bunch of boards, but have yet to get a reply saying it worked for someone.
Do you know if the 5 year rule is for Equifax only (they are the only one's that I have seen it in writing), or is this an actual NY state law/rule? If so, I am "moving" this weekend, and hopefully the last 2 baddies will get zapped!
Thanks in advance!

Mirrored at: http://mix6.com/credit or http://www.primenet.com/~kielsky/credit

and it's all free!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/credit-repair/message/1701

is a post about NY w/success. You'll have to also register w/yahoo egroups but this page will prompt you to sign in or register. I had the same question and was just going to do it and see (but I have to wait about 2 years anyway for the time limit to kick in). Apparently the dropoff is a computer generated thing.

I have family in Syracuse. I was going to change some of my credit cards so that my creditors update my address (no nasty give us Dl, utility bill that way). That way when I use the automated system a couple of months later for my report it'll confirm the info I give it. Course, for the price of a ticket to NY and a new dl I'd do it for the extra 2 years better credit (if I had to)!!!

Anyway, on this post you can ask Charles if it was just Equifax or all 3. He's a mortgage broker so I'm sure he'll know.

Please post your results! A 2 year reprieve would be nice, I agree!

I'll let you all know. I live in CT, 4 miles from the NY border. So I can either get a Mail-Box etc address, or use a friend's address. Does anyone know if MBE addresses are on any sort of 'black list'with the CRA's, and if that could cause any problems? I could even dig up my old NY driver's license if it will help

There's controversy over MBE. I had one in atlanta and it did have a Hawk alert : warning fraud associated w/this address.

If you have an easy choice of using a friend's address, use it! It looks like it should work on all 3.

I'm wondering, how you could change your address before ordering reports... because it looks like once the computer sees NY it's gone (or you could call in and say it should be off).

I was initially going to change my bill-to on a few of my cards. Upon further review, it looks like the majority of my cards do a monthly check only on my Experian. So that one will be taken care of quickly. As for Equifax and TU, I was thinking of applying for a Juniper card, since it looks like they only hit Equifax, and I will look for a card to apply for that hit TU in NY. (on that millcbs...site) Based on what that guy George wrote on E-groups, things look good!.
Thanks again, and I will advise on the outcome.

Your concept about validation is a good one. However, don't misinform others regarding a collection agency owning a debt. If you read the fine print on most loan or credit card agreements, the lender reserves the right to sell your debt to a third party. This is normally only done if you default, however, legally the debt can be sold and the new owner can collect on it. If this were not true banks could not sell credit card portfolios. An example is Greentree Financial, it's entire portfolio was sold last year to Conseco. By your logic, Conseco cannot collect on the debt because you did not take a loan/card with them.

If you ever use a PMB (MBE) it will only take a short while (as in a few weeks up to 2 months) for the CRA's to add to your report that the address is a commercial mail drop service address. What happens is that they use A cross Street Directory which can tell you what type of building any address in the USA is. Sometimes this is okay if you tell your creditors thgat you use a PMB just to get your mail because you are concerned about privacy, but trying to pass it off as your home address sends up the red flag.

Experian has my previous address as multi-family (tri-plex).

Current address single family (house).

You can use a mail box for billing if you want, but you will also need to give a residence address to avoid "RED FLAG".

Interestingly enough, if you'd read all the posts you'd notice that my "concept" as you called it is in fact a reality. Now, while I am not a lawyer and I wouldn't begin to really argue the finer points of this, I can assure you with all certainty that I USED these letters. IN REAL LIFE, with a REAL LIVE collection agency. Guess what? The collection agency is gone. They removed all info from my CRAs. Done, gone, seeya! took about 2 months start to finish.

I also used part of the validation letter to go against a major bank's collection company's lawyers here in Atlanta. Got everything I wanted. I had to sign a release. When all was said and done: tradeline gone, and I asked their lawyer if he did individual collection (protection) work for individuals. I wanted to hire him individually to help me. He said yes, we talked, and he told me that even though I'd used somewhat of a shotgun approach with them (I mixed a lot of letters for them), he did admit that I had gotten them on violating FDCPA, FDRA etc etc. He admitted most people don't know their rights and if they do, they don't really know how to enforce them. Later, I didn't need him because the collection company backed down.

Hal, you may want to read my next post here and look at the info on the new post to get better informed: it's the sources of info. I'm sure you'd be open to new and complete explanations regarding validation.

By the way, you're totally correct on the point that banks can sell and assign accounts. If you'll continue to read into other messages on this post, however, with regards to assignments: "Case law tells us that even though a creditor can legally assign an account to a collector, it is not enforceable unless the debtor agrees to the assignment. The collector has no standing to collect without your consent. The agreement can be established by making a payment to the collector. This is called consideration.

In order for you to be obligated to any assignee, you must have derived some benefit from the assignee, or paid a bill to them, or signed a new written agreement (a novation). You must agree to the assignment or it is not enforceable."

Now, when you look more closely at this, you'll see that there are many ways we inadvertantly agree to this and most of the time we give up our rights when we don't understand them (or don't assert them). Then we are stuck with the assignment.

THE POINT OF ALL THIS IS TO LEARN THAT YOU MAY HAVE A CHOICE IN THE ASSIGNMENT, IF YOU HAVEN'T TALKED AWAY YOUR RIGHTS, OR MADE AN AGREEMENT TO PAY (NOVATION)...OR SIGNED AN AGREEMENT TO THE ASSIGNMENT. If you do these, you're dead in the water. Deal w/the collection company. You MUST try to shift the burden of proof to THEM. simple.

Let's face it, this board is open to everyone out there: individuals, collection company employees, credit bureau watchdogs... some want to help us, some might not. So everyone reading this, when you read the naysayers... remember. It could be a valid counterpoint, it could be just armchair lawyering, or it could be purposeful doubt that someone's trying to put in our minds to make us think we don't have any rights. I didn't believe in the validation concept either, by the way. But I sent it because I didn't have a blasted thing to lose except more money. And when it worked, by the way, I was just as blown away. I thought I'd gotten lucky. Now I think otherwise. I learned more of my rights.

Remember the days when we didn't know how to make a collection agency even leave us alone? I do. Then I used a cease and desist and low and behold, the account went back to the original creditor for collection. I also remember when I thought I had to leave incorrect information on my credit report because the CRA said it had verified it (when it was my Mom's mortgage and I was just 18 with my first job). How did I get that mortgage when I was just 9 when my parents bought the house? Or what about the Citibank collection agency that just tried to collect on a debt that had the SOL run out 7 (Yes SEVEN) years before. But if I hadn't have known that, do you think they would've told me my rights or just taken some of my money?

Now Hal, I don't mean any of this personally. And I certainly appreciate everyone's opinion. And I certainly don't understand all the law... but I also don't understand a thing about electricity... and when I flip my lightswitch on at home it still works.

This worked for me. In real life. And not one person on this board giving counterpoints had addressed the fact that even though it "shouldn't work", it did.

By the way, all the info I got was free. Amazingly enough, most of the best letters and best tactics I've been given were free. I'm almost done with my reports. I'm rebuilding now and in another week or so I likely won't be on this board much. Which is why it was so important for me to post this info before I left. I thought you all knew this, by the way. At first, I didn't understand why I was getting so many questions. Then I realized I'd switched from my yahoo group to here and I assumed you all knew who Michael kielsky was. :)
http://www.primenet.com/~kielsky/credit by the way. Start here.

Obviously, read the sources and letters for yourself. Use them or don't. But think about it this way: If you send a validation set of letters and they don't work, you're in the same place as you are now. But when they work!!! Oh the difference it will make! Ok, I've posted all I know on this.

I wish I could answer all of your questions. I've only used it in a couple of situations. You all have answered so many of mine. Please refer your questions to the guy named "due process" on the yahoo egoup credit-repair. Read the posts first, they explain a lot.

Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/credit-repair
You've got to register... that's Yahoo. It's worth your time, I promise. Well, I hope this helps all of you. Good luck!

Just because it's routine commercial practice, doesn't mean you automatically give up your rights.

Additionally:
"Case law tells us that even though a creditor can legally assign an account to a collector, it is not enforceable unless the debtor agrees to the assignment. The collector has no standing to collect without your consent. The agreement can be established by making a payment to the collector. This is called "consideration."

In order for you to be obligated to any assignee, you must have derived some benefit from the assignee, or paid a bill to them, or signed a new written agreement (a novation). You must agree to the assignment or it is not enforceable.

The affirmative defenses include "accord and satisfaction," "statute of frauds (no contract in writing)," and "failure of consideration," for most of these types of cases. These defenses are to be used when the "debtor" is sued by one of the assignees (it doesn't matter if the original creditor ends up as one of the assignees).

The first is "failure of consideration" which means, there is no evidence that an agreement was made, no payment, no exchange of any benefit or detriment to any party. The second is "statute of frauds" which means there is no contract in writing between the parties. Because the original creditor never actually named the new collector as an assignee in the credit agreement, the assignee can never be a party to that agreement unless permitted by both the debtor and creditor.

The third used is "accord and satisfaction" which means the debt has been satisfied in full. The analogy is if you owed your neighbor $100 and a friend paid the debt for you and your neighbor accepted $75 in satisfaction of the debt, neither your friend nor your neighbor can sue you for the $25 because they accepted another amount in lieu of the original debt. It can also be called a "novation." This also happens because of an assignment. If a debt is assigned to a third party collector, it is no longer legally enforceable because the creditor has waived his standing or rights to collect. The same applies to the third party collector. No one can put himself in harms way (incur a debt knowingly and voluntarily) and then expect to be awarded damages for his losses.

By the way, in reading some posts on Yahoo about this, several people did push the issue in court and won. The collectors tried to lie and say that the individual had made payment arrangements, even though they had not. They tried to argue a novation (new agreement) which would then make the person obligated to the assignee (collection agency). However, since there was no new written agreement, and there were no payments made to the collection company, the individual won. He’s on Yahoo. Read and email him. He’s ecstatic at his success, as I am with mine. I’m sure he’ll help explain it to you if you’d like more info from someone else who’s used validation.

Basic credit rights: Fair Debt Collection Practices Act 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g]

The validation letters take your basic rights and case law and combine them to protect you.

Here's the link for the FDCPA: by the way
http://www.cardreport.com/laws/fdcpa/fdcpa.html

Once they don't validate, you use the Fair Credit Reporting Act (611 et seq) to get them to remove the info from your reports

§ 611 Procedure in case of disputed accuracy
§ 616 Civil liability for willful noncompliance
§ 617 Civil liability for negligent noncompliance
§ 618 Jurisdiction of courts; limitation of actions
623 Responsibilities of furnishers of information to consumer reporting agencies

Link: http://www.cardreport.com/laws/fcra/fcra.html

They do have responsibilities and the validation letter will help you prove that, not only the debt isn't yours, but then the subsequent info given the the bureaus is Now willfully negligent (because they know you've questioned the validity of the debt). If they can't prove the debt they also can't prove the info provided to the CRAs... Then You have Them over the barrel