Wondering if anyone has knowledge of this. Due to divorce, coupled with very lean times in my profession, I fell behind on my car payment. I dodged the repo people and didn't surrender the car, well because I need it to get to work, and also to travel to see my kids. (Ok, the buttons on my shirt aren't bursting off from pride, but I did what I needed to do.) I'm still working on my situation and figuring out what to do, which I'm sure will ultimately require me to surrender the vehicle. My questions for this forum relate to the repo process though...the repo agents have done several things which would seem to be questionable legally: 1. Often introduce themselves in a manner which is meant to suggest that they are law enforcement agents (they are not). One of them even had a badge in his wallet. Usually they state that they are an "investigator". One of them even left a business card in my door which reads "INVESTIGATIONS -- FRAUD DIVISION" with a phone number and PO Box. 2. Telling me that it is a felony to not give them the car. 3. Disturbing us very early or very late (ringing the doorbell at 7:30am or after 9:00pm) 4. Stating that "we're filing in court today" (they didn't) or "we'll be returning shortly with the sheriff" (they didn't). 5. Communicating with others regarding my debt. I know that there are laws which would prohibit debt collectors from doing similar things, but are there similar laws which govern repossession of property?
http://www.carreonandassociates.com/articles/reposession.htm Can I go to jail? Conceling the car can be a crime. Concealment of a vehicle with intent to hinder a creditor is a felony in some states. You need to read your state statute and see specifically what the rule is. It is probably listed under business or commercial fraud.
Sorry, but you are wrong. Breach of contract is not a criminal offense - it's a civil matter. You can not be arrested for failing to give your car to the recovery company. The car is NOT stolen, and if they report it as stolen, THEY can be charged criminally. All they (the lender) can do is sue you for breach of contract (failure to pay). That's IT. It is NOT a criminal matter.
A business card that says, "Investigations - Fraud Division" is not a crime. If they TELL you that they are law enforcement, that's is impersonating a law enforcement officer, and that IS a criminal offense in every state. They are lying to you if they do this. It is not a criminal matter. It's a civil matter, for which the only remedy the lender can pursue is to file suit against you for breach of contract. You'd have to check your state subtantive laws regarding this, as all are different. They are a recovery company. Again, different rules for different states. Generally speaking, there is no law against telling a lie, or we'd all be in trouble ... This is an absolute no-no. Your recourse is civil, however, not criminal. Every state is different. Your best bet is to check your state legislature's website for the actual substantive and procedural laws.
In AZ, there is a law that makes it a class 6 Felony to hide a car from the repoman. In case you are wondering what that law is, it is ARS 13-2204.
In PA the law, CRIMES AND OFFENSES (TITLE 18) Chapter 41 § 4110. Charge: misdemeanor of the second degree In MO: Chapter 570 Stealing and Related Offenses Section 570.180. 2. Defrauding secured creditors is a class A misdemeanor unless the amount remaining to be paid on the secured debt, including interest, is five hundred dollars or more, in which case defrauding secured creditors is a class D felony.
There are exceptions to ever situation, and you can't expect someone to know the law in EVERY state. But as a general rule in most every state, this is a civil matter only.
I would hope that one would research more and be able to provide proof. A simple google search returned the above results, and most states, if not every state, has a similar law.
But in EVERY instance you've cited, there is the element of INTENT. "... with INTENT to DEFRAUD." If your intent is to buy yourself a little time to get your finances in order and get back on track, then you have NOT fulfilled the INTENT TO DEFRAUD element. You do THAT by PURPOSELY not paying and intending to deprive the lender of the secured interest PERMANENTLY. The poster already states "which I'm sure will ultimately require me to surrender the vehicle". There is no permanency in his intent.
13-2204. Defrauding secured creditors; definition; classification A. A person commits defrauding secured creditors if the person knowingly destroys, removes, conceals, encumbers, converts, sells, obtains, transfers, controls or otherwise deals with property subject to a security interest with the intent to hinder or prevent the enforcement of that interest. B. For the purposes of this section, "control" has the same meaning as prescribed by section 13-1801. C. Defrauding secured creditors is a class 6 felony. ***** That's the AZ law, no where do I see the word PERMANENTLY. ***** § 4110. Defrauding secured creditors. A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he destroys, removes, conceals, encumbers, transfers or otherwise deals with property subject to a security interest or after levy has been made thereon with intent to hinder enforcement of such interest. ***** That's the PA law, no where do I see the word PERMANENTLY. ***** Defrauding secured creditors. 570.180. 1. A person commits the crime of defrauding secured creditors if he destroys, removes, conceals, encumbers, transfers or otherwise deals with property subject to a security interest with purpose to defraud the holder of the security interest. 2. Defrauding secured creditors is a class A misdemeanor unless the amount remaining to be paid on the secured debt, including interest, is five hundred dollars or more, in which case defrauding secured creditors is a class D felony. ***** That's the MO law, no where do I see the word PERMANENTLY.
in·tent (ĭn-tĕnt') n. Something that is intended; an aim or purpose. See synonyms at intention. Law. The state of one's mind at the time one carries out an action. The state of one's mind at the time one carries out an action. If a person is CONCEALING THE CAR, he is aware of what he is doing, he is aware he defaulted and the creditor is demanding the return of the vehicle. Furthermore, the definition states AT THE TIME ONE CARRIES OUT AN ACTION, not PERMANENTLY. The first time the debtor CONCEALS the car is his INTENT.
I'm not going to even TRY to reason with someone who cites Webster's when trying to interpret substantive criminal law, as it would be an obvious waste of my time ...
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/i053.htm http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intent http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/intent.html All show the same definition.
A touch of reality here, the down side is that these guys ("repo men") are usually pretty good at what they do. In other words, they will probably get the vehicle pretty soon. They usually do have a court order that allows them to take the vehicle, and in most states can come on your property to retrieve the vehicle. I think your best bet is to try and work something out. They really do not want the vehicle, they want the money. If there is any way you can make some payment, I would try that. I am sure this is no way to live right now. I'm also certain you would not want ot be with your children, and have them come out of a store to see your car being taken away. See if you can make interest only payments, partial payment, etc. There usually is an answer both parties can live with.
Unfortunately it's past that...the loan has been accelerated so I would have to pay the entire balance due (which is more than the car is actually worth at this point.) They don't have a court order...otherwise I would expect they'd be showing up with a law enforcement agent (rather than pretending to be one.) My county has its case dockets online and nothing has been filed. If I simply surrender the vehicle, I'm still going to owe if they sell it for less than what's owed (from my understanding, they don't make much of an effort to get a good price for it.) I am wondering if it's possible to negotiate with them...as in "I'll bring the vehicle in, if you agree to settle this as paid in full." The fact that their representatives may have broken the law might be a factor which would give me some leverage? Any thoughts on whether the bank will usually settle on something like this?
Whatever they sell the car for at the auction will go towards the balance you owe. The difference is going to be the deficiency balance and you will be repsonsible for that as well. If you turn in the car they will show on your credit report "voluntairly surrendered", but you will still be responsible for the the balance. I doubt unless you file a suit against them for the activities of their repo people, they will settle for anything other than the balance you owe.
I think it is worth a try, at least negotiate the remaining balance. It's difficult to have a clear head in times like this, but review the loan agreement, review what the payoff amount was, etc. Look to reduce the spread as much as possible. Most likely they will try to come after any balance owed (after sale). The only other possible option is to try and find a buyer that will pay higher price than will probably be gained at an auction sale. I feel for you, this is a tough one. Good Luck
