Open Account or Written Contract?

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by andra, Aug 27, 2002.

  1. andra

    andra Well-Known Member

    Hi,

    I am trying to figure out the SOL on some of my accounts. I have a charged off Bank Account would that be considered an open account or a Written Contract? I am in Texas and the information I have is 4 years on either one can someone please clarify the difference for me even though they are the same because I want to understand what I am doing. Also please let me know if the information I have is correct or not.

    Thanks,

    Andra
     
  2. Why Chat

    Why Chat Well-Known Member

    If the account is for a fixed term (period of time) and at a fixed unchangeable rate of interest, and for aspecific amount, it is a "written contract SOL"also called a "closed end contract.

    If it is for a revolving line of credit, where you pay (usually) monthly, and as your payments are entered your available credit increases, then it is an "open account SOL" also called an open-ended account.This, by the way, includes equity line of credit loans.
     
  3. andra

    andra Well-Known Member

    Thanks WhyChat for the explanation but I am not sure this account applies to either one. It was a checking account that was overdrawn that they charged off so there was no specific amount or length of time. Can you help me with the SOL on this one?

    Also let me see if I got this. A mortgage or Installment loan would be a written contract and a credit card or line of Credit would be an open account. What about medical bills and utility bills and those types of things? How do you classify and determine SOL?

    Thanks again for your help,

    Andra
     
  4. andra

    andra Well-Known Member

    bump
     
  5. Why Chat

    Why Chat Well-Known Member

    You are asking about 3 different areas of State statutes.

    In general, the SOL on overdrawn checking accounts will be found in the banking regulation portion of the statutes.

    Some States have separate rules for utilities, others do not, they are found usually in the ucc section.

    Your medical bill, if you signed personal responsibility, is probably considered a written contract, although some States have a different SOL for medical debts.
     
  6. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    so medical bills in michigan are written contracts, i am assuming...
     
  7. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    I do not know,,, and the library was no help for me yesterday. The books were so large, many and vast and the print so small I was assimulated. :-O

    Double drats...I was just told by a long time member here that utilities and meds fall under Open accounts.

    WRITTEN?? Oh NO,,, That means I am not out of SOL after all.

    So how do I find out speciffically in black and white for my NV state? I cannot find it!

    I am down to 6 for Written
    4 for Open
    and 3 for Promissory notes.

    sigh,,,
     
  8. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    well i am in michigan and i called the a.g. office (they are blooming idiots there) and i tried to find out if utility/medical debts or sol's were goverened by the ucc.. and what i got was that these types of debts are like contracts with an assumed responsibility. i told the guy, 'well i didn't sign any contract with the electric company' and the response was something on the lines as 'well you assumed usage of the services under the company's guidelines... this is a contract.

    he never really made the point that these types of debts are governed by the ucc (i am thinking this is more geared toward sale of property... i don't even see the connection)

    but anyhow, open ended and written contracts bare the same sol for michigan 6 years... do you know if there is a difference for you?
     
  9. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    Good morning, kbean,

    I need to look up what is "ucc section".

    Assuming what "a.g." is, I need to call the Nevada Attorney General's office you say?.

    Cool! I'll scout around for the number and see what I come up with. Oh wait,, is there only one number or a number for each state?

    Yes, there is a difference in Nevada. 6 years for "written contracts" and only 4 for Open. I still do not have a complete grasp on Promissory Notes according to Nevada. Keeping my mind open that it might fall under a note too but I am beginning to doubt it.

    Seems we are in a similar boat with the medical bills. Except you are brighter. ;-D I have been trying to understand the Why Chat's Hippa. Not much is sticking other than I do pay and pray they cash the check. Crossing my fingers it will apply for me.

    I think you wrote that the Hippa route will not work for you? I do not understand.
     
  10. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    universal commercial codes...each state has them, they are relatively new and somewhat controversial so i hear, but they don't really seem to make sense to me. i have had people quote sections that they think apply to utilities and med bills, but i fail to see the connection. keep me posted if this pans out for you!!

    Yes, each state has their own attourney general's office...some brighter than others...

    I was able to find mine at my state's site (.gov) possibly yours will be more help.

    Well I am thinking that a med bill is a contract, and a utility is an open ended account or they are both open ended... i don't have any evidence to support either opinion, however...

    i am assuming that you have already tried to dispute these debts with the cra's and ca's? not to say that this will mean you don't owe the money if the accounts are deleted, but just a thought.

    I don't quite understand HIPPA, but I have heard that if you contact the CA regarding the medical debt that you automatically waive your privacy rigths... but this is for debts accumulated after 4/03 i think (according to whychat)... he posted that the doctor had the right to release my medical records for pursuit of payment but he recommended the HIPPA letter... but as i mentioned i have already been in contact with the ca, so i don't know if i have waived my privacy rights...and it's way too confusing. good luck...
     
  11. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    here, this will save you a little time...

    Nevada: Frankie Sue Del Papa (D) (775) 684-1100
    Old Supreme Ct. Bldg., 100 N. Carson St., Carson City, NV 89701
    http://ag.state.nv.us/
     
  12. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    kbean,

    Your reply should keep me busy for a couple of days.
    Filled with good info for me. Thanks, And yes I will let you post anything I find out.

    By what you said, it sounds like I may have a chance with Hippa.

    No, I have not disputed *thank goodness* the CAs or done anything except yesterday, I took my first affirmative "no turning back now" action and called the CRAs to update current address, prev addies and personal info.

    I gotta run and grab this workstation at Office Depot. $32 bucks! comes with a very needed file cabinet. The OD floor guy is trying to tell me its gone. I do not believe him. Its a steal of a deal! If it is I may just get one of those plastic file cabinets for 20 bucks.

    Catch you later,
     
  13. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    Uniform Commercial Code:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc



    Each state has adopted the UCC as written above. Some states have made minor changes but basically this is what applies to all the states.



    Any account where one could expect to have goods or services added to the account as you go along, and the total due REDUCED by whatever amount you pay, is "open". That's why statements are necessary. To let you know what the current balance and terms (minimum payment, etc.) are.


    Here's a good way to tell.

    Do you get periodic statements, (usually monthly)?


    On a closed contract ALL the terms are set in advance and nothing changes. Therefore there is no need to generate a monthly statement. A car loan is a good example, no statements, just a "payment book".


    On anything where they generate a monthly statement you're safe to pressume it's an open account, but should still do little research.

    So, if you have an account with a medical provider where you get monthly statements, can go see the doc. and have that charge also added to the account, well ... that means it's "OPEN".

    But be careful. You can reduce such an account to an installement contract by signing off on an agreement to:

    Freeze the balance, set up payment terms for a fixed monthly payment, due on the same day of the month, for a ceratin number of months, it becomes an installment contract.

    Most medical accounts, therefore, are "OPEN".


    :)
     
  14. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    very nice butch... so based on this deduction, i am going to assume the same for utilities...hense the statement...
    thanks...

    furthermore, with these new affirmations regarding 'account type' are we to assume that the sol is set based on the account type and not the jargon beseeched within the ucc??? thanks so much
     
  15. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    As frequently happens, this [the FCBA] is law that relies upon a definition from a completely different law, in this case TILA. So you have to bounce around a little to "get to the bottom of it".


    THE FAIR CREDIT BILLING ACT Public Law 93-495 93rd Congress - H.R. 11221


    § 303. Definitions of creditor and open end creditplan

    The first sentence of section 103(f) of the Truth in LendingAct (15 U.S.C. 1602(f)) is amended to read as follows: â??Theterm â??creditorâ?? refers only to creditors who regularly extend, orarrange for the extension of, credit which is payable byagreement in more than four installments or for which thepayment of a finance charge is or may be required, whetherin connection with loans, sales of property or services, orotherwise. For the purposes of the requirements imposedunder Chapter 4 and sections 127(a) (6), 127(a) (7), 127(a)(8), 127(b) (1), 127(b) (2), 127(b) (3), 127(b) (9), and127(b) (11) of Chapter 2 of this Title, the term â??creditorâ??shall also include card issuers whether or not the amountdue is payable by agreement in more than four installmentsor the payment of a finance charge is or may be required,and the Board shall, by regulation, apply these requirementsto such card issuers, to the extent appropriate, even thoughthe requirements are by their terms applicable only tocreditors offering open end credit plans.



    TILA 's definition is restrictive with regard to CC's. The FCBA expands the definition to INCLUDE CC's. Some misinterpret this to mean the FCBA applies ONLY to CC's.

    This is NOT correct.


    So, lets go see what TILA says about "Open Ended Plans".


    Truth In Lending Act.
    TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 41 > SUBCHAPTER I > Part A > Sec. 1602



    The term ''open end credit plan'' means a plan under which the creditor reasonably contemplates repeated transactions, which prescribes the terms of such transactions, and which provides for a finance charge which may be computed from time to time on the outstanding unpaid balance. A credit plan which is an open end credit plan within the meaning of the preceding sentence is an open end credit plan even if credit information is verified from time to time.



    So, follow the definition in TILA, but also make sure the more liberal interpretation of the FCBA also applies.

    :)
     
  16. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?


    Each point = correct.

    Just go by account type.

    By the way, misinformation abounds regarding SOL's. I've found Why Chats resource the most accurate.

    :)
     
  17. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    kbean,

    Thanks you so much for the name and number. I missed seeing your second post on my way out.

    Over 100 degrees and I am doing the happy dance.

    HA HA HA Some wisecracker put a flyer on my doorknob while I was away. CASH LOANS $500 TODAY. 5 MINUTE APPROVAL NO CREDIT CHECK

    Made me chuckle. Vegas abounds with these kind of extraordinary loans. I am hoping on a rebound when someone else loses their house I will be able to get a clearance deal like they did on mine. Life is grand when you have the money to wait for killer deals and jump on them. I could get use to this! LOL

    I have a new desk workstation coming tomorrow! YEAH! It has a place on the side for the computer. And a glass tier for the LCD and a solid executive size black granite looking surface. With metal drawers. Not TOO ODD looking. Heheh :-D Now if I only had a black leather chair to go with it! LOL Man, what a difference $200.00 in a chair makes. :-O
    I can wait.

    Thanks again,
     
  18. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    Butch,

    Happy dance over for now. Sounds like my 12 or so run ins with the emergency room doctors and ambulances, tests are ALL written contracts, hence 6 years SOL Nevada time.

    I would not have such a hard time agreeing that they are making them separate closed accounts except every time I go to the Emergency room they, the doctors, refer to my old or last account records where they screwed up originally and make presumptions and hospitalizations based on the last account. AND NEARLY KILL ME AGAIN! I may not have any one particular doctor there but I can "go see the doctor" and they apparently "know me" based on the records they keep.

    Closed should be closed. Don't you think?

    Not reopen when she comes again and charge her for a new closed account. *huff and a puff*
     
  19. gretchen

    gretchen Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    Butch,

    I found a statement!


    "We want to take this opportunity to thank you for choosing us as your provider of medical services. This is a statement of your current balance due.

    "Transactions made after the statement date will appear on the next statement."


    Bet you were about ready to give up on me too. ;-D My possible sue worthy accounts are down to being managable by me come what may. * laaaaAAAAH ~~ high note of happiness to God *

    Thank you!
     
  20. kbean

    kbean Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Account or Written Contract?

    But but but...

    Lets say you go to the ER, for instance...

    You get a bill for services provided...if you go back...they start a new account for you instead of continuously adding to the original balance.

    I understand what you are saying...for instance if it is a regular provider that you see all the time...
     

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