Re: Spec house C had no clue that there was a spec house. I did a deed search in the county where C was raised and her mom still lives . . . and found they had bought two additional lots in the golf course subdivision where they had lived. That seemed odd b/c it so happens my sister lives on the same street and I knew that there were no empty lots. (Yes, this is a soap opera - I grew up in the same town where C and her mother grew up). Then I did a Deed of Trust search, as that is the instrument that is gonna really tell the story. And there it was. (And no "satisfied" doc on this DOT) Mom owns the house where she and ex (C's dad) lived while married; Mom and s/dad built a new house after marrying in the golf subdivision and bought 2 additional lots; then, mom and s/dad built another house on one of the lots. Money has been moved around, including 2 LOC's on the golf house and 2 LOC's on the home Mom owned w/ ex. Then I did a real estate "for sale" search b/c we had the physical address of the "mystery" house and there it was - offered for sale at this very moment. Also, let me add to this story by explaining that at 18, Mom and S/dad took C's keys away to their house . . . and told her she had to move out . . . and they got rid of all her furniture. She did not want to go to the local college but they said - no choice b/c she had to move out. They would not help her apply to any other college and said they would only pay (using her money, of course!!!) for her to go to the local, private college in the dorm. She only stayed one semester and then was on her own. Had to work and pay her way and go to a nearby community college (very good school but not what she had planned on). So C has not lived in her Mom's house since 18. She was not even allowed to SPEND THE NIGHT there. Her Grandparents live in the same town so she would go there on occasion. This was when she met my son, and from there on, she spent holidays w/ us. Her brother (12 now) was also dumped on holidays, and spent them w/ us, too, b/f going to his Dad's g/parents' for a few days (they live in another city). C knew at the time they wanted her out of the house b/c there was too much opportunity for her to ferret out info on her account, as she and her Mother had continual confrontations over the account. Additionally, s/dad's son had moved back in the house, and they wanted C's room for him (and he is older than C - so not like he was a minor needing shelter). They subsequently sold the house about 2 years ago, and moved into the house Mom owned w/ her Ex, where they are now. They had been renting that house while they lived at the golf course home. I immediately thought - seems we should be able to put some kind of lien on the spec house, but I only know about mechanics liens. C's name does not appear on any of the deeds or DOT's. Back in April of 2007, when I told C she HAD to get a letter to the brokerage (she had been calling prior to that) - the broker told her that they had sent letters to C's mother instructing her to turn over the acct. to C, but since she had not complied, "there was nothing they could do." Of course, we have no proof of any of those conversations. Also, something else I have wondered about for several years - C's Mom said they paid for a full year of tuition and room at the private college (also my Alma Mater, LOL) - b/c the school discounted if you paid in advance. But C stayed only one semester - so what did Mom do w/ the refund? One year of college tuition and board at this college is about $26,000. Can't wait to track that expense and get a print out of the refund from the college. Oh - and just thought of something. The bank account that C now has - her mother used to deposit C's money when she got checks from the brokerage (supposedly). Seems C could legally ask for back statements on this account since she is co-signer. Am I right? The problem is - this small town - C has asked for this b/f - but they refused and said that was up to her mother to provide. Everyone is buddies w/ everyone else . . . and the bank where that account is also did the original financing on the golf course house . . . and some of the directors on the board are very longtime friends w/ C's family, blah blah - you know the story. Of course, C called about this and was immediately rebuffed, and even spoke w/ the manager of the bank, who finally told her - get it from your mother. Should we put that request in writing - letter from C - or get an attorney to do it? Okay - lots of info here - don't know any of it is that germane . . . but it does draw a picture.
One more thing I told C this past week to go open a new account w/ a different bank, b/c I was shocked she was still using the one that has her mother on it as co-signer. I told her to close out the other account, but thank goodness, she has not done that. I think we need to keep that account open as it has some kind of history. We just don't know how much history as the bank statements STILL go to mother. I found a bank locally that has a no-fee account for students and C is going to go open up a bank account there this week.
This thread could become legendary! Wise to keep access to information open, but no $$$ should be left at risk anywhere. I would recommend a letter immediately to the brokerage stating that C is the sole and exclusive custodian of the account, signed and notarized. Put them on record that only C can authorized changes in the account. I would also seek records wherever I could. Mom is going to be very reluctant to give information. You may have to file suit to get it. I think that an attorney and a forensic accountant would be advisable for C to retain. This is not going to resolve itself easily. While the pace may be glacial at times, immediate and effective legal response may be required to maintain the economic status quo and to protect C's interests. An internet board can't help there. We can only look over the shoulder and suggest options that we might see from what is presented. And I'm more than willing to do that. But action is C's and she needs professionals to help her take the steps she needs to take.
By chance were there any mortgages filed on these properties (specifically with "C"'s name added?) Well, this will work itself out very soon. "C" can put a lien of the house, but I'll stop there. Best to consult an attorney. It doesn't matter that you lack evidence, the evidence is that they did NOT turn the account over, and there were trades/activity on the account after that point. You have more than enough "evidence". Did "C" officially withdraw from the college, and by a deadline for refunds? You need to find out if "C" was a "joint holder" or just an "authorized signature". However, if checks were deposited that were in her name, she has a right to the information. Obviously, you're up against a strong "ol' boy network" here, start bringing in the legal "dogs of war", and divide and conquer. Once one folds, the rest start scrambling and pointing fingers. My bet is that there is someone in that town of "Peyton Place" that could be an ally. There's too much here for someone to not have made an enemy or two in that family. Dig a bit, "the truth is out there".
Divide and conquer... The easiest dog to cut out of the pack is the brokerage. As bizwiz says, you have all the info you need. Their records will give places to look on Mom's side of the issue. Turn the brokerage into an ally, willingly or unwillingly. And keep digging.
If there's one 'good' thing in this whole mess, then it's that the way the mother treated 'C' will make it easier for 'C' to push through and file legal action against her mother and not have this major major guilt on her. Yes, she probably will still feel guilty, but not as bad as if her mother had treated her good.
I only wish I had thought of this earlier.... I did try to get outside help when I was younger, but I never had anyone acting on my behalf and was easily overwhelmed and overtaken.
That's where people looking over your shoulder can come in handy. Sometimes you're to close to see the BS.
Exactly what I was thinking. Keep the account open, but only keep a few dollars in it. I have an account that was joint with ex, he won't sign the papers to be removed. It's an account with a long history, and the bank has ATMs many places I travel. Although he won't sign the papers, I have all the ATM cards and checks. He's done some research once trying to get proof of some bills that were paid. I keep that account open with about $100 in it. If I'm traveling and need cash I call my husband and have him take money from our regular account and put it in the one with the nationwide ATM, then I go take it out. I have some credit card accounts with the same bank, so the long history on the checking account is useful. But I sure won't put my paycheck there, nor will I pay any bills from that account. I definitely agree with this, especially based on the "good ole boy" network. But when the summons arrive, they may be more than willing to cooperate. This is great advice. A forensic accountant can help put a lot of this together. I don't know how they charge, if they can work on continency or not. But you need to find the money to pay them. I suspect they'll return you much more than what you'll pay them.
Ani, you mentioned in an earlier post, that there were relatives and friends who warned 'C' about her mother using her money. I'm assuming that those people are still in that town where the mother lives. They might be good allies in this.
Good point. If you can find one or two allies, once things start to unravel you'll find many more allies. Once the house of cards starts to crumble, the rats will abandon the ship. If criminal charges are looming, some may even cooperate with the prosecutor in return for immunity or a lesser sentence. It sounds to me like there may well be criminal charges against more than Mommy Dearest.
Time to start writing a plan.. C & Ani, It looks like its time to start formulating a plan for proceeding. You should be getting a lot of information soon, credit reports, brokerage account statements, public records, bank statements). You will need to "lay it all out" on a huge table and start sorting through it. But you need to start organizing yourselves and planning. You will be fighting "wars" on many fronts: 1) C's credit reports-repairing negatives that shouldn't be there, 2) Debt Status-assessing what debts, and how much owed, for accounts that may be in "C"'s name but opened by Mom, 3) Public Records- this involves "expunging" records of the arrest you mentioned, and any other possible "judgements/liens, etc. out there, 4) Tax Consequences-depending upon whether taxes were ever paid by "Mom" on monies withdrawn from C'c account, 5) The brokerage account-there is a chance of recouping "damages" to the account from both the brokerage firm and Mom/Stepdad, just a matter of willingness to go to required steps. Laid out like this, it is obviously a lot. It is doable and manageable though. C, you may want to grant your Mother In Law Limited Power of Attorney to speak and act on your behalf on some of these fronts. You may want to enlist another family member, or your fiance as well. As suggested many times, you will need the aid of some professionals for the best results. -An attorney, preferably specializing in securities, taxation -a good accountant, again hopefully one very familiar with securities (be careful, as they all are NOT familiar with these instruments, -perhaps someone from FINRA/NASD itself to review these actions and history, -an attorney specializing in identity theft, credit issues In sumary, I think some emotion has been vented, and everyone feels thay have some power now. Time to plan and execute, decide what your objectives are and will be, what you're willing to accept as losses, what you will NOT accept as losses. Also, time to plan how to accomplish all the tasks, and what resources you'll need to do it. You can do this, and you will come out stronger and better, no question. It is only a question of "how". Once you've got the beginnings of the information, time to get down to business. Think of it that way, this is just business, get what you want now!
Good advice, but I'd think about adding a forensic accountant to help ferret out everything. There are many things interwined here, and a forensic accountant is trained to go in and find information and put all the pieces together. The brokerage account is one piece, but there are also bank accounts and credit card accounts. Forensic accountants are trained in putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
I would hold off a bit with a forensic accountant; the cost becomes prohibitive, unless there is a strong sense of being able to recoup some of the losses/damages. Since the "origin" of the monies will most likely be the trust, then it should not be that complicated to recreate the transactions, and know where to go to find where spent. Once the decision is made to file suit, then I would consider this. Look for one who was an ex-FBI agent, it's amazing how many CPAs are ex-FBI. They would also have to specialize in securities transations, to know what was ground for illegal/unauthorized trades and withdrawals.
All excellent suggestions Yes, I think we will have to spread everything out . . . and see what we have to work with. An orderly approach to getting things taken care of has to be put in place first. I really appreciate the checklist, BW, as that does help clear the mind and decide on priorities and tasks. Also, I had no idea how to "cloud" a title - so thanks for that, V!!!! We are going to have to do some more research as we have found out someone is living in the spec house, so a rental firm may have a contract on the spec house. If Mom and S/dad had sold the house, I should have been able to find a "satisfied" DOT, wh/ is NOT showing up. There is so much to sort out! C's paternal g/parents do not live in the same town, but they have been informed of our actions thus far - and are definitely allies. I seriously doubt I will get an attorney involved who is from C's home town b/c I know all of them and everyone is tied in w/ everyone else . . . literally. Very incestuous. We are so anxious to get our hands on the info from the brokerage office . . . and we agree - if it arrives via snail mail and not Overnited, that is gonna tell us something right there. Also, the tax implications . . . we are prepared to talk to the IRS and do whatever is necessary to make sure C has no liability. Let the IRS figure out if something stinky has gone on w/ C's parents' tax returns. We will have a tax attorney help us w/ this, as truly, nothing puts the Fear of God in my heart as does the IRS. My philosophy has always been - scrupulous attention to detail and nothing even slightly questionable - I would rather PAY the IRS extra than get into an audit w/ a problem, LOL. Sidebar: my father is a minister (retired) and has been audited 3 times, poor fellah, b/c he truly tithes and actually does MORE than tithing, on his very limited salary. On all three audits, the IRS ended up refunding money to him - as he had actually not used all his deductions. My point is - I do NOT think everyone adheres to my belief about "never take a chance w/ taxes" - and personally knowing C's s/dad . . . well, won't besmirch a man's reputation w/o his having a chance to speak on his own behalf, but let's just say . . . I wouldn't be surprised what was found. So we have a lot ahead. It is easy to get overwhelmed and feel it is impossible to tackle. Thanks to each of you for helping us stay on track. There were several times this weekend when I started to feel it was too much to sort out . . . especially since I have my own business and have to stay focused w/ that, too. The next few weeks, I will be auditing medical records. So yes, I am good at tracking details, catching inconsistencies, making sure fed/state regs have been adhered to . . .but this investment stuff - truly - so out of my field . . .
Well that is great news, I'm sure this is a tough path for them as well. G/P's input as to original investments (both $ amount & types) will be a great starting point. Again, we're all here for you, don't hesitate to ask any questions, or for any suggestions/advice. I'm positive this is a case of "it'll get worse before it gets better", but I am certain it will come out better in the end. Don't give up, take breaks when you need them, but don't give up. This is what "true family" is all about.
Ani, as long as you treat this as a business transaction, albeit an adversarial one, you should be OK. If you get overwhelmed, don't fall into the trap of acting based on the pressure. Act on the information, not the emotion. The proper time to use the professionals is when the material is available or decidedly unavailable. But I would counsel that having the professionals on retainer sooner rather than later would be of value. This is more for the stop-loss aspect of the situation, since the pro will have a better sense as to where the bodies might be and how to prevent the bodies from being moved or destroyed. As you get closer and closer to taking action, you may find that the moving and destroying of the bodies begins to get frenetic. The need to keep those bodies in place is important.
I agree with Oracle that it will probably get worse before it gets better. But stick with it, and do it very methodically, and you'll get through it. Bodies will fall where they fall.
Ani, just because you can't find a satisfaction of debt notice, doesn't necessarily mean that the house hasn't sold. In Fulton County, Atlanta there's a 7 month backlog between filings and thngs actually showing up in their computer system. Some counties are faster than others. Then there're ways of selling a property without paying off the mortgage i.e. agreement for deed, subject-to, wrap mortgage etc. The first one would not even show a change of title, as the title stays in escrow with an attorney for whatever time period was agreed upon. But chances are that you are right and that the property is only rented as most people don't really know much about creative selling/buying. Someone could of course knock on that 'renter's' door on a saturday with a 'survey' of people in the neighborhood for which the person would get $ 5.00., if they participated. Then the survey could include questions of whether they're renting or own, how long have they lived here, are they planning on staying and wrap that all into some major topic, that these questions would fit into and which would answer some questions ;-).
