You attorney will help you here. The problem is not as much getting things resolved now as it is to stop the losses. You will need to encumber everything that you can so that you have the time to sort through what happened and to determine what you need to do. You are working on a limited set of information. This may be the set of information that you will have to work with, but your efforts now should be directed towards filling out the information set as best you can. A complete picture is your objective. Unless there is something that needs urgent attention, I would recommend allowing the process to provide more perspective.
I wouldn't even mention the car. It's such a small thing in the big picture, that I would not voluntarily give them some kind of reason to trump. Are they going throw this into the mix, when they're being confronted with +$ 800,000? It would look ridiculous. And since the mother has title, this can look very easily like a lot of parents letting their kid drive a parents old car. Nothing so out of the ordinary there. I wouldn't even mention it. Don't ask for the title, because then you are given them power. As to the houses, if they're that highly mortgaged, then there's not really an option for C to get them without getting her own mortgage. If she took them subject to the existing mortgage, there's a pretty good chance that the mortgage company would call the loan due and it would end up in foreclosure, due to the legal stuff involved. Basically, C wouldn't have the right to the house, but to the equity, that's in it. So, there might be a court ordered sale, but in this market - who knows where the price would go. The other way, if there was a way to proof, that C is the rightful owner and that it should have never been in the parent's name in the first place, but in the trust's name, then there's a way to file a suit called 'Quiet title', which would silence all previous claims, parents and mortgage company. The mortgage company would then probably go after the title company and the title company would go after the parents for fraud. This is not a simple thing and would need an attorney well-versed in difficult quiet title suits. It can take a few years, in which C better move in, as the house otherwise would not get taken care of. And parents might be vindictive to vandalize. So, either work for getting a title transfer now, which would give equity Or prove, that title should have been in C's name all along and get house free and clear. But it can take a couple of years. I would say, the best place to get some reparations from is the brokerage, either this one or the previous one, but it's the same broker involved. They have deep pockets and good insurance. Obvoiusly move quickly as you may be at the end of a long line it seems.
O and V . . O - you are voice of reason and I appreciate it. I do think the process has to reveal what is possible as we do only have limited info. Perspective is the key and I am sure an attorney can help us gain that, too . . . V- I have to admit something here. I have a real estate license (have not used it for over 20 years) and spent 2 years in classes to get it - and I swear - I simply did not know all this stuff. You amaze me w/ your knowledge and suggestions! I am learning from you . . . thank you so much for taking the time to share . . .
Ani, I would not be looking at this as either/or situation. C would have reasonable cause of action against both the brokerage and "Mom", and if she prevails, receive damages from both. The question would become whether or not the latter had the assets to satisfy and award. Being unable to satisfy an award has nothing to do with being held liable. You are still in the liability phase. Again, your current posture is likely best defined as stop-loss. First, it is essential to take complete control of, or at least, freeze the brokerage account so that no more transactions can be done with C's knowledge and concurrence.. The brokerage has enough assets to cover your potential demands, so action against them would be limited only to applicable statutes of limitation.. "Mom" may not. So efforts there would be to freeze "Mom's" ability to transfer assets somewhere to which you cannot gain access. Any asset worth $$ is a candidate. Legal assistance here will be invaluable. SOL also is a factor, but not critical at this juncture. As was mentioned earlier, you may need the Court's assistance in getting "Mom" to cough up information. You will need to assess the cost of tipping your hand to "Mom" against the cost of letting assets get away. Only C can make that decision, it is best that it be an informed one. You need not let "Mom" know everything that you've found out at this time, only the stuff that is needed to get the job done, be that directly or through legal counsel. Give out as little information as you can to accomplish the goal.
Ani, thank you, but I just know what's applicable in my field. I'm learning a tremendous amount in this thread. And I think the thread is so good, because several people are contributing what they know and that makes the whole stronger than the sum of it's part. As to the real estate license, don't feel bad. I guarantee you, 99% of practicing agents wouldn't know it. Being an agent is very different from being a real estate investor. Very different fields. Most agents aren't open to 'creative real estate', but only do what they do the regular way. Doesn't mean that there aren't others out there, but they're in a very small minority. There's very different knowledge in each field.
Ya'll won't believe this but... I got a phone call from the ops. Manager at UBS. She said that since the account was transfered before August of 07' They didn't have any of the records on their computer system. I told her that I "need to see the files" and somehow she found a way to try something different. She took my name, the name of the custodian of the time, my social, and the account number saying she would send it to a department to look for the files. She said it would take 2-3 weeks to get any information back, but when she did get something she would call me. She said it would help if I knew the exact month that the account was created and I told her I would work on it, but I mentioned to her that I wouldn't know because "I haven't seen any records" haha I still can't believe she called me back the next day. I'm so used to people trying to hide from me! lol That's something to be thankful for! And of course, as ani has already mentioned, I'm soooo thankful for all of you! Thank you for being my coaches! Have a happy turkey day!
I see a pattern here....... This is interesting info, re: the original brokerage firm. I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner! My bet is that the original brokerage firm "asked/suggested" this broker to leave, and had no problem with him "taking the account w/him". I bet this first firm noted this activity and called him on it. Often this is done in the industry to "pass off the violations"; as the brokerage firm itself always gets hit too, when a broker violates the regs. It is often easier to just remove the problem, and let another firm worry about it. So, I'm betting UBS will be very cooperative. Give them the time they need, most likely these files are on micro-fiche or in controlled storage. They may only have year end summaries. However, tread lightly here, an attorney may surmise that UBS has liability here as well, as it appears withdrawals were made when they held the account. C, remember that your "Mom" was required to maintain records while she was the custodian. Failure to do so will look bad in the eyes of a judge/jury. I doubt she could claim an "ignorance defense", considering your g/f's business acumen at the time. Same requirement re: records goes for him as well. In short, the law will be on your side on this aspect. Your "case" may be easier than you think; you can "prove" unauthorized withdrawals, and you can reasonably estimate the "damage". Make "Mom" prove she didn't use the funds and make these purchases. Good Luck, you're making great progress..
"C"-I "gotta know".... One thing has puzzled me throughtout this "soap opera"...How is it that your Mom could pull this off? Is she one of those "charming beauties" that always seems able to get people to do what she wants? I've got a picture of "Alexis from Dynasty" in my head of your Mom, and I'm amazed how she continued to pull off these activities, with so many people. I must be missing something about her! Is she that financially sophisticated, or just a great talker? Is she so "charming" that she wraps people around her finger? Just filling in some of the blanks here...
Bizwiz, maybe it's the 'good ol' boy' network at work? Since the grandfather used to be custodian and he had the connection with the broker, maybe that's it. But then again, the mom was able to continue, so maybe a siren she is ;-)
This could all very well be the case, I'm just always amazed at the things some people seems always able to pull off. Another case here! In this soap opera, I'm sure the broker was younger, and starting out. He was probably hungry for business. An easy mark for g/f! Remember, back then a $100K investment would have paid $5K to the firm, with about $2,500 to the broker. This was "great money" back then. This scenario is a soap opera that must be peeled back like one, to get to all the events. We have to admit, it has been an exciting story! It seems we're all glued to the unfolding events! We haven't even gotten to the credit reports yet! I'm positive that will tell a huge story also!
'C', this may sound kind of far out, but I've found putting 'intent' out there moves mountains. Usually there are reasons why certain situations jump into our face and keep repeating , even though we're trying to avoid them. Whether it's the type of relationships we pull to us or whatever. For years you've avoided this 'hot potato' and tried to get away and I guess it kept coming into your way from different sides. NOW you're empowered and now you have put the intent out there, that you will get to the bottom of this and with that attitude you will pull things and people and situations to you, that will help you with that task. That's how the universe works. I know, I know, that sounds kind of esoteric for some people, but it works for me. Everytime I stop being half-assed about something and make the commitment to it, it all falls in line.
V...I think you are absolutely right and completely agree with you! I have been dreading getting into this mess for so long from all the rumors and speculations I've heard through the family, but when I finally started getting serious and gathered together my "team"....or as we call it the "intentional family"....everything has started to fall into place! Even with all the little road blocks...our "commitment" is keeping the pot boiling! PS...stay tuned bc anifani is about to shed some light on the "sirens" in my family. haha
The call from the UBS supervisor is encouraging. They are looking at the problem, and likely will be cooperative until they see some sort of liability on their part. At that juncture, there will likely be a change in attitude as they seek to limit their exposure. (They might choose to bite the bullet and settle, but that's something to look at later.) I think good procedure at this point is to put a time stamp on your request for the files and their "commitment" to a 2-3 week turn-around. A pleasant thank-you letter outlining your request and your understandings of how and when they will be responding might be in order. It documents the conversation and your expectations of them. Singularly unnecessary until it comes time when you have to prove a point. Then its value is unquestionable Bizwiz's thought on passing-off the rogue broker is interesting, and, unfortunately, all too common a practice. Pursuing information on the complaints filed against the broker may add to your picture.
For your Thanksgiving reading pleasure I grew up in the rural South, about 10 miles from Lakewood, where C's mother grew up. My father was a minister, so the emphasis in our home was education . . . and although we lacked material things in our sparse parsonage, we were fortunate to be exposed to an upscale lifestyle, b/c we were invited to the Country Club and social events . . . simply b/c my father was well-liked. I made sure I knew the "right way" to dress, even tho I made my own clothes, starting at age 14. Luckily, simple to make A-line dresses were in style - so I fit in despite everything being "home-made." I aspired to a lifestyle that included such things as afternoons playing tennis, horse-riding on shady bridle paths and smart dinners w/ the "rich and famous" who captured the headlines in the social section of our local newspaper. I remember reading that Aristotle Onassis said - always obtain the best address you can afford, even if it means the upstairs, tiny loft above a business. So when I enrolled at the nearby private college, I rented the tiny garage apartment behind a beautiful ante-bellum styled estate, complete w/ a circular driveway and across from the county's premier horse farm. In the evenings, when I would drive my VW Beetle into the estate's driveway, I felt like a million bucks. Who cared that I was working three jobs and refinishing furniture on the weekends to pay my expenses. In my mind, I was living LARGE. The owner of the farm across the road, Mr. Wise, was a grandfatherly "country gentleman" who knew my family . . . and one evening, when I was walking along the road, he was outside . . . and motioned for me to come over. What a kind person he was! He asked me if I liked horses . . . and told me to drop by his stables any time . . . It was on one of these forays to the stables that I first met "Gwen," Mr. Wise's 12 year old granddaughter. With her dark hair and prep-school outfit, I was immediately aware that Gwen had lived a life very different from mine. Her imperious attitude was quite evident when she immediately questioned my "right" to be in "her" barn. In subsequent encounters, I realized Gwen was "daddy's little darling" and her every wish was her daddy's command. That was my first encounter w/ the girl who would grow up to be C's mother. However, I had known her parents for about six years, b/c as it happened, my father decided to mix politics and religion, and ran for the state legislature . . . and won. Gwen's parents (C's g/parents) were staunch party supporters and wrote out the big checks to back my Dad's campaign, during the three terms he served. Gwen's mother was the essence of everything I felt embodied the word "class." From her perfectly coiffed hair, to her Chanel suits and manicured hands . . . Julia was the consummate hostess. Her imposing, yet tasteful home was decorated w/ attention to detail and oozed "old money." With their live-in cook and housekeeper, Julia ran her home w/ precision and meals around her table included a "silent butler" system, by wh/ Julia could summon her staff w/ a touch of her foot on a button at the dining room table. Events held at her home were gracious, elegant evenings filled w/ all the "people who were anybody" in Lakewood. To be Continued . . .
RE: For your Thanksgiving reading pleasure Okay, it is all starting to come into focus a bit! I can appreciate this storyline, and where it is going...for I had a similar one for my family, including the "losses". I should be sitting on prime oceanside real estate holdings right now, for as the "first, and only, male" of my generation, it was all destined to go to me. Yet, a great uncle managed to lose everything trying to be a real estate tycoon. He wasn't "evil", just a very poor businessman, combined with the deadly trait of greedy. For "C", the moral of the story is that time does heal all. I admit there were years during my youth where it really bothered me. It was very difficult to go see these properties years later, and realize the tremendous values they now held. But it fades, and then fades completely. Now, it is just an interesting "soap opera" story. All your negative feellings will pass, you will replace this intended bestowed "wealth" with riches of your own, a new family and life. We used to have a saying the the brokerage industry: "people are funny about money"! I've seen families torn apart over money, turning on each other, and acting like cannibal savages. Just let this whole mess make you a stronger person with more character, and a commitment to never be like that. It's ironic, but this may be your greatest inheritance! I am positive that your "Mom" still has the self image of "Daddy's (entitled) princess", and TRULY feels she is entitled to her lifestyle, and she cannot understand why the rest of you do not see that.. I can't wait to hear the "next episodes", the history is amazing. But back to the issue at hand. You do need to "document" this history and timelines, this will all be relevant at some point. Times will start coinciding with "events" and withdrawn monies, etc. Have faith, good will come out of this somehow. So, for today, forget the trust mess, enjoy the family and turkey!
BW, so well put . . . Thank you, BW!!! And especially . . . thank you for sharing your own personal inheritance saga. There are several more such stories in my family, which makes me wonder . . . how common this might be . . . My mother's family was torn apart by fury over my g/father's lousy financial management when the stock market fell apart. He had managed to weather the stock market crash, and then lost what was left during the depression. When my grandfather died in the early 1970s at age 86, one of his sons was STILL not speaking to him b/c of things that happened around 1930!!! Hard to believe. Yes, I have the Thanksgiving spread totally ready - just have to finish up the mashed potatoes and gravy! I ought to post my "easy, tasty and inexpensive" recipes somewhere, LOL!!! We woke up this morning to dear husband's delicious coffee and some Italian dried fruit bread . . . and the day ahead should be quite relaxing. Thank you to everyone who has bolstered our spirits, kept us focused and energized and moving forward. Due to this forum, we have also been able to inject some humor into the situation at hand . . . and knowing that others really have survived the emotional turmoil, as well as financial disappointments that life sometimes brings to our doorsteps . . . has put things in much better perspective. Instead of feeling anxious and sad, wh/ is where we were several weeks ago, we now find ourselves speculating about possible outcomes and sharing a chuckle. It isn't even a matter of "win or lose" at this point . . . it is a matter of diligent pursuit to uncover the truth and find peace in the outcome. I assure you, we would NOT be where we are with this whole process if it were not for all of you who have taken time out to hold our hands through this very confusing time. Hope everyone has a wonderful day! Happy Thanksgiving! More later!!! Ani, C and the rest of the family
Class comes in many packages. And the wrapping doesn't necessarily reflect on what is inside. Happpy Thanksgiving, all.
So true, O!!! Very true. Wealth does not necessarily equal class, altho it may equate to status w/in a group. It is amazing how many people are dazzled by the appearance of wealth, even if an illusion . . . and how hard people will work at keeping the illusion alive, even when it means doing nefarious things to their own family. In the end, I have learned that being a gracious, respectful person - and living a life guided by a steady moral compass . . . that is what makes a person "classy." Happy Thanksgiving, O!!!!
You are right about what makes a person classy. The other interesting thing is that many of these people that have to have "show" are really not that wealthy. Take C's Mom--mortgaged to the hilt. On the other hand, if you read about true millionaires (not necessarily the ones you hear about like in politics, Kennedy, etc, but the ones who have "made their way") you'll find that they did things like take lunches instead of buying, park farther away for free instead of paying to park close, things like that. That's how they accumulated the money to get the millions. I remember one story, can't remember who it was, but he was a CEO worth several millions, and he not only brought lunch from home, but carefully saved the aluminum foil to use again. Obviously, he could afford to throw it away. But he was a self-made millionaire who got where he was by being frugal. Anyway, enjoy your dinner. I'll be back later--leaving for relative's house now.
A story from the "other side" Perhaps just to restore faith in people, I used to have clients where "great g/f, and g/f" were models of a situation like this. As brief as I can be, I had a young couple that I "cold called", and my gut told me to stay with them. After a while, I realized they would not be "bagging an elephant", but they were so nice, genuine good people, I stuck to my determination to work w/them. I ended up handing down the "calling", and true to thier words, the couple finally came in for a financial review almost two years later. I put a financial planner in with them, he was reluctant becuase they were a normal "modest" couple. Long story short, I obviously wanted to meet them, and likewise after two years. Yes, the initial review showed a normal couple with modest positions. Then... the wife state's "Oh, there are also these stock certificates, but I don't know if they're really worth anything..." The company seemed familiar, so I had my "Ops Mgr." look up the company, and get a stock quote. Meanwhile, I was adding up the number of shares she had. When my Ops Mgr. came back with the information, and I was done adding, I was shocked. The couple assumed they were just old stocks worth nothing. They asked me, "can you tell if they're worth anything?", and I replied: "Yes, I can tell you they're worth something, but I can't tell you how much right here. Excuse me, as I have to go get a calculator with more number places!". They both looked at me shocked, I then informed them that they were "multi-millionaires", after getting the "big adding machine". They had no idea what great g/f, and g/f had done. The story unfolded how great g/f started a company, brought in g/f, and upon the birth of each descendant child, deposited large blocks of stock into trusts for them. Each b'day, graduation, marriage, etc. brought more. Yet, the story further unfolded how the family had "always been modest", a typical middle class good family. Oh, yes they knew there was a business, but family was first. The trusts were set up so that the children really weren't aware of thier growing fortunes, and everyone was just happy with what they had. Nobody in the family was ever aware how rich they were until moments like this. Great g/f, and g/f had weathered the Great Depression, and vowed to be modest forever. The "gifts" were designed so that the family never knew they were rich. The wife had to call her mother (descendant), and inform "Mom" she was probably rich also. What impressed me about this couple was that they stayed "modest". Being informed that you are (very) wealthy can be an unsettling, and change evrything. But not them, they stayed pretty much the same, continued the tradition of setting up the children with security for life. So, I was deeply impressed with two gentlemen long passed. They were described to me as guys you thought might have worked in a hardware store, and you wouldn't give a second glance to on the street. Just "gramps, and great gramps". Yet, they were intense businessmen that not only created a giant company, they truly managed the wealth for the benefit and protection of family. So, there is good out there, we sometimes don't hear enough about it. "C", you have a chance to turn everything around. Even with the modest amount left, you can start to "right the wrongs" of history, and set a new course for your family and children to come. This is an opportunity for you, it may just seem bleak right now. Focus on the future, not the past, you may be the one to recreate what your great g/f or family intended from the onset. Something went bad in this family history, and yes you are stuck with your family. But you have the chance to make it something solid. Enjoy the "true wealth" you have today, something no trust fund can buy!
