Today I got in contact with a collections agency that has called us a couple times in the last week. They are saying I owe on a debt originating with Providian in 2002. Following the paper trail of this debt I found it has been switching hands for the last 5 years with no contact to me. I called all of the companies that have hold of this account and traced it to WAMU who took over Providians accounts. They cannot or will not give me proof of the debt. They cannot tell me how much I owed them when the account was sold, or even when the account was opened. The collections agency I spoke with today is telling me they will not send me out any validation of debt because they already sent it. I have not talked to these people or as far as I can recall received any paperwork from them. According to my rights they have to give me validation within 5 days of initial contact. Is this today when they first spoke to me? Is this the day that they mailed out the first letter to me? They want me to settle on this by Friday or face court action. I can't even find proof this debt is still valid. I did have a Providian account in 2002 but I thought it was paid off. Why would no one contact me until 2008? I understand my rights and the statute of limitations is 6 years from default of the account, BUT Providian(WAMU) can't even tell me when the account went into default, they can't even tell me how much the account was for. Anyone have any ideas or can help me out in any way? I am so confused and don't know what to do!
Check out the statute of limitations in your state. If the debt is too old, make an appointment with a consumer lawyer. I am pretty sure if I gave you a list of 5 or 6 names, the CAs name would be on there. ETA: I missed where you said you looked into SOL already. Was the account opened in 2002?
The account was opened in 2002 and almost immediately paid off from what I recall. The SOL states that it is 6 years from the time the account went into default. The account wasn't sold to a collections agency until 2005. In contacting Providian(WAMU) they say they don't have on file anything except the date the account was sold, and my information, not even how much was owed on the account when it was sold. Which has got to be BS...what large financial institution doesn't keep records of accounts? I did contact a lawyer today and he said it sounds like there is a case, BUT the debt is reasonably small as far as credit cards go, and I could end up paying more than that in attorney fees. I have also been finding online several cases where Providian sold off satisfied accounts, some cases still in court some already settled. I just wonder if I should pay it and call it done, or go through all the legal trouble. Also: Can someone clarify "initial contact" for me. Is that today when we spoke, or is that the day they claim to have mailed me the first letter? I want to know if I am even entitled to proof of the debt at this point or if the window has passed.
I take the position initial contact is just that - first contact by phone or letter. If you never even got a 30 day validation notice, I would treat the phone call as a validation notice. A reputable (yes, there are some out there) CA will have no problem validating even if they claim to have sent the 30 day notice a long time ago. If you believe the account is "paid in full," start documenting threats of lawsuits, garnishment, etc. It will come in handy. How much are we talking about?
As of now they are saying the account will be in the judgement process by Friday. They already started paperwork and will hold it while waiting for a payment, but I only have until Friday. Just a threat? They have had the account for a year now and say they sent out the initial letter in February of 2007. I just got done doing a free credit report and it shows the initial default date as 08/2002 so SOL is almost up...could this be why they are pressing it? I noticed though that the collection agency that held this account before the collections agency I am working with, has reported and it shows the account as "charged off". Providian isn't showing up as reporting the debt at all. It is around $4,000, yes small for a credit debt, but I am not one to roll over and take it, and I don't want to pay this bill twice. The size of it though just makes me tempted to pay it and be done.
Have you requested validation in writing? In addition, have you disputed any debt collector tradeline associated with this alledged debt?
I do not know of a single state where they would have a judgment against you by Friday. I would say call their bluff especially if you genuinely believe you paid off the debt. If they sue you, I would talk to a debt collection defense lawyer. If they do not sue you, you would need to decide if its worth the hassle to sue them.
Talk about a "rocket docket!" Seriously, they would first have to serve the Complaint and that wouldn't even happen by Friday.
What I meant by judgment process is that they will be filing the paperwork with the courts by Friday. I ended up spending all day on the phone with them yesterday and all day today. I have been looking up case reports online, and this isn't just me this is happening to. There are a LOT of other people that are claiming the same thing. The intent in most cases is to prove that Providian sold off paid off accounts to recoup some money lost and help out when they filed bankruptcy due to 3 class action lawsuits, causing Providian to pay a total of 535 million in damages. The way that the cases are going though isn't good. If they aren't getting thrown out before they make it to court, they are getting settled in the collections agencies favor. No one can get proof of their account being paid off because Providians documentation no longer exist, and the credit agencies have proof they bought the debt. A few people are winning cases with a simple canceled check that has "final payment" in the notes. I wasn't smart enough to do that I guess. After dealing with them and talking with them they are willing to drop the debt pay off to just a little over $2,000. I think we have decided to pay this off and get it over with. That is cheaper than any attorney would be to take them to court over this. The only thing is, I found out this agency is evidently working for the company that reported the debt as "charged-off". Will they have to go in and change that report to settled or paid or something of that nature? From what I can understand is they can still recoup the debt even if they once listed it as "charged-off".
No need for attorneys No need for attorneys. Most of them will do nothing but sell you down the river at a supposedly discounted price. Learn how to respond to their complaint. Learn to look for false and misleading affidavits. I've got a bunch of them on my message board along with explanations of why they are false and misleading and what makes them so. How about affidavits notarized by fake notaries? Yes, my students have run into some of those too. We ran into one in New Jersey just today where the supposed notary is not and never has been a notary. That makes her an actual criminal because she is illegally misrepresenting herself to be a public official. A felony offense. The Affiant claimed all manner of things "that upon information and belief" were true and correct. Now what is wrong with that? Plenty! So tell me if you can why an affidavit that states that "upon information and belief" something is true cannot be introduced into evidence in a court of law. There are many court cases stating exactly that and I have those posted on my message board as well. Don't fall for phony notaries and phony statements by people who swear to false things that couldn't possibly be true. Let's start putting those people in prison where they belong in order to protect the public against their illegal acts. It can be done and my students have done it. They have also been successful at getting the commissions of notaries revoked and criminal charges pressed against them. You can do it too. All it takes is a little bit of investigation and filing a few complaints with the proper authorities. Lawyers can be sanctioned and disbarred for the same offenses. They are supposed to use due diligence in preparing and presenting their cases.
First things first, you need to follow the process on this one... 1) Write a letter of Request for Debt Validation, include your dispute information that debt is paid, never received fist notice from collection agency, and pertinent info such as you consider phone call as first communication. Also ask when they sent their first notice of this debt, and to what address was it sent, and request a copy of the original written notice. Make sure to send this Certified Mail Return Receipt Requested, and include the mail article number on the letter. 2) Dispute this tradeline if showing on your credit report(s). If they are threatening to sue for this debt, then they will have to prove that you owe this debt, this is the intent of the FDCPA.
Where does it say in FDCPA that they have to answer that question? Theoretically speaking that is true. In practice Murphy's law applies in at least 99 percent of all cases nationwide. For those who might not know, Murphy's law says that if anything can go wrong it will and at the worst possible time. Almost without fail local court judges will grant judgment to the plaintiff regardless of what the defendant files or says in court. Judges routinely accept as true any affidavit of the plaintiff no matter how false and misleading it might be. The only way to get relief from corrupt judges is to sue the plaintiff's lawyer, the plaintiff and whomever files false and misleading affidavits in federal court. Judges have immunity from being sued for any decision that they might make but if they make a decision which is contrary to what the law says they can be sued in their private capacity as a private citizen. Complaints can be filed against lawyers who allow the filing of false affidavits or make false statements in court. Complaints can be filed with state judicial ethics commissions as well but the final answer is that the only way to get relief is to identify their illegal actions and sue them in federal court. Almost no case goes to trial in any local court that does not contain false and misleading information or other serious errors. If the vast majority of cases ended up with federal cases being filed against attorneys, their clients and affiants the nonsense would soon stop and although debtors would still end up getting judgments and garnishments against them those judgments would probably be for less money and there would be a lot less of them. Attorneys would soon become very frightened at the thought of failing to thoroughly investigating each and every case and making sure that everything they did was absolutely correct true and above board. That is not the situation today. While the intent of the FDCPA and other consumer protection laws is to make sure that debtors are treated fairly the only way that happens in real life is if the consumer takes them to federal court at every opportunity.
Nowhere in the FDCPA is this explicitly stated to answer this question; however the FDCPA does state that the 30 day validation window time starts at "receipt" by the consumer. Per the OP's issue, this would be a "reasonable" question to ask of the CA, as they would have to show that it was "likely" that the OP recived the 1st Notice. If the CA sent the notice to an incorrect address, and they were made aware of this fact, then they would have to send another notice to start the 30 day validation period again.
Agreed! But what I have noticed when that happens and they do send out a new notice it usually does not contain the full Miranda. Only the shortened version, To wit: THIS IS FROM A DEBT COLLECTOR AND ANY INFORMATION GAINED WILL BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE. You miss my point however. My point is that when they fail or refuse to validate (prove the debt) or do so with a simple statement that you owe some amount of money stated as a lump sum they think they have complied with all that is required of them under FDCPA. Then they proceed with whatever collection activity with impunity. That is not validation or proof of anything and the only recourse is to sue them in federal court. As a for instance, I have an ongoing case in Oklahoma where an 85 year old lady was sued for a debt. Due to numerous violations the lady filed a complaint about the lawyer with the Oklahoma bar association. The attorney, a lady lawyer with a very prominent law firm had filed nothing whatever in the way of proof of the debt even though the defendant demanded it in a properly prepared and worded demand for proof of the debt and also sent such a demand to the attorney directly. When the attorney answered the complaint she stated that she had complied with all the requirements of FDCPA by sending a demand letter and furthermore stated in her response that the level of proof under FDCPA was no where near as stringent as the requirements needed in litigation to prove her case. Imagine that! She proved in her response to the bar that if she were in litigation (which she was) she would have to provide a much higher level of proof yet she provided absolutely nothing whatever either in her response to the demand for proof of the debt in either instance. That is just one example out of what more than likely amounts to millions of others in which proof of the debt is not rendered upon receipt of demand for validation or proof demanded of a plaintiff in court. So what is the remedy? Complain to the judge? (LOL) Complain to the Bar? (dream on) File a countersuit and watch it get dismissed without so much as a tip of the hat? No, the only answer is to file a federal lawsuit against the lawyer and the plaintiff and that way you will get some justice. Nothing less will be effective. Count on that.
