I received a bill from procollect. The bill is invalid and I have the paperwork to prove it. It is a medical bill. I already was trying to work with the medical billing office. Unfortunately, they keep changing staff and the new staff members never seem to have a clue about how their own billing systems work. I did, however, send them over statements showing that I had paid the bill, and a copy of the financial contract of how much I owe, and also disputed some extra charges they had for services that were never received. Also, my other doctor contacted them and sent them a letter, in writing, to let them know that these additional services were never received and she knows this as I was in her office on the date it was to be received and had tests done with her that could not have been if I had received their services that day. They had billed for a surgery in their surgery center. Plus, the used the wrong DX code on their insurance billing. My insurance company told them that they cannot continue to try to collect from me for the above and beyond agreed amount, but they do keep trying to collect. So right now, we are working with the doctor's office, insurance company, and us, to get the doctors office to lay off their illegal activities in collecting. If worse comes to worse, I will be reporting these things to the state for insurance fraud and such. However, the doctors office already sold these bills to procollect. When procollect first contacted me, I called them right away and told them what happened and they said they needed it is writing. I put it in writing and sent it to them and they acknowledged receipt of my letter. I thought things were fine, but then, they called me yesterday and told me that unless I paid the bill, in full, by April 6, they will sue me. Ok..I do NOT owe this money. This is an invalid debt and I already told them so. I am pregnant now and under extreme stress and at one point, started having contractions and had to go up to labor and delivery to be checked out over this. (it is way too early to deliver). They are causing me extreme undue stress. I asked procollect again if they had received my letter stating that the debt was invalid, they told me that that was not of their concern and they still intend to collect and if I do not pay up by April 6, they will sue me. No matter how much I tried to explain the situation and how this is not a valid debt, they cut me off and told me to send them a copy of a receipt showing that I paid by April 6, or they will sue me. They were like a broken record. I did not know if I should pull up my credit card bills and send them copies to show what I did pay? I did pay my portion. But it seems that they are not concerned with what I did pay, or how much I really did owe, they are only concerned with getting their $1400. I feel like I would be better off cutting off contact with this company..but would I be? What should I do? They are like deaf broken records. They keep telling me that they do not care if the debt is valid, they admit to having received my letter stating it was not valid but do not care and just keep demanding and threatening. What do I do? Thank you in advance for your help. Oh, and for the record, DH and I are living debt free lives and do not have any back bills. We have excellent credit (but are not willing to pay an invalid debt to make it go away). Please tell me what to do to protect both my sanity and my assets. Oh, they want $1400 but no one has broken down what it is for. I have already spoken to my health insurance and they agree that I do not owe that money.
That's a pretty clear threat to sue. If they don't sue you, that is a violation of federal law. Dumb Bob doesn't know how long you have to wait before you unload on them with a lawsuit. A lawyer might be able to tell you. But you should remember that your job right now isn't to worry about what these crazies are going to do, it's to stay healthy, you are making a baby! When they call, don't freak out, don't overreact, don't let it get to you. If you have to, unplug the phone. From what you say, the money isn't owed and you can prove it. What can they do? What they can do is try to scare you. If they sue you, they should have to show that you owe the money. That probably means they will produce the billing that you say isn't correct. You'll then explain why it isn't correct and produce your materials, including sworn statements from your doctors saying that you could not possibly have had that procedure. If you lose, you will appeal. This is a process that you should learn, we all should. Because if we don't, we'll eventually be sorry. Wait a minute. Your portion? I'm afraid it's all your portion. It's not fair, but if your insurance decides to not pay, you owe everything. This needs to be changed but it is the law now as far as Dumb Bob knows. They already threatened to sue in a day or so. So the game is up either way now. If you tell them you don't want them calling you, that's usually a reason to sue, but since they said they were going to sue anyway, they have to come through with the suit or you'll sue them. So there's a quandary. Maybe you aren't listening. You are dealing with people who really don't care if they are collecting a valid debt or not. All they want is your money. They aren't going to listen to logic, they are going to threaten and otherwise try to force you into cutting a check. If you let their behavior get to you, some of the sicker ones will enjoy that even without the money reward. Don't let them.
Where is she going to find a lawyer that knows the answer to that question or even be willing to hazard a guess? She could probably ask a hundred lawyers and not get the right answer which is that if they had not already filed the lawsuit at the time the threat was made a violation has occurred. There are several federal court cases on that very issue. The reason courts rule that way is because there is no way to determine what someone intends to do in the future or whether they will do what they say they intend to do. [/quote] But you should remember that your job right now isn't to worry about what these crazies are going to do, it's to stay healthy, you are making a baby! When they call, don't freak out, don't overreact, don't let it get to you. If you have to, unplug the phone. [/quote]Great idea Dum Bo. And what if her doctor needs to contact her for the results to some medical test and her phone is disconnected? What if some condition arises and she isn't physically capable of getting the phone plugged back in to call 911? Yeah, great idea. What everybody should learn is that you can't appeal a judge's decision just because you don't like the outcome. If you appeal a judge's decision you will indeed be sorry. No lawyer would do that and you shouldn't do it either. Why is that unfair Dum Bo? Why should the law be changed? Insurance companies do not guarantee to cover every medical expense regardless of amount or type of treatment received. You pay a certain amount of premium for a certain amount and type of coverage. Most people understand that. Why don't you? Where is she going to find a lawyer who would be willing to take that single cause of action and who is authorized to practice law in a federal court? Just because someone is a lawyer does not mean they are authorized to practice law in a federal court even though they are the defendant. If a lawyer is not authorized to practice law in a federal court he has to either apply to the federal bar or hire a lawyer who is authorized to practice law in a federal court. I've seen more than one lawyer get nailed by pro se litigants for unauthorized practice of law in federal courts when they were sued for FDCPA or other causes. All that happens is that the lawyer has to get authorized to practice law in federal courts. That's not a big deal. All they have to do is show they are a member of the bar in some state and pay $300 but it sure does make them look stupid in front of the judge. Regardless of whether she owes the money or not she is in real danger of getting sued. They can sue at any time and if they do that she has no federal case. She could sue them in federal court and they file within the next day or so she would lose because they would claim they had turned it over to their lawyers who just didn't get the case filed before she filed hers and the judge would let them off the hook. You have advised her to unplug her phone which is about the only way she could get enough evidence to make a federal case viable. You have given this lady and several more people here incorrect and even dangerous advice. Why don't you just sit back and learn yourself instead of trying to tell others what to do?
Please remember personal attacks and spiteful sarcasm have no place on this board. It is possible to disagree with someone without offending them, and we ask everyone to please use tact in the way you correspond with others here. This forum should be a safe haven for anyone who wants to help or who needs help, and those who threaten that environment will be warned and eventually banned.
You know in all the time I have been here I don't remember much vile, and while we are not always right we are all trying to help, and also learn. Some people have different ideas than others and this does not make them wrong or right. Each of the posters seem to have a different approach and that is not a bad thing, AND have to say that there have been posts where I felt the poster was giving wrong info and definitely needed to write about it, AND then again there are many times when a poster is giving wrong info but it is not harmful and I let it go, as I do not want to be the hall monitor ; ) So remember what we are here for... TO HELP ... Woofer
Dumb Bob finds it remarkable that you know something that she could ask one hundred lawyers and they wouldn't know. Dumb Bob supposes that it will probably be futile to ask for a cite on this. That may or may not be true, Dumb Bob doesn't know. But if someone says that they are GOING to sue you, that does seem to be a statement about what they are going to do in the future. So if there is a rule that the future statement refers to the past, that seems potentially confusing. Again, Dumb Bob doesn't know and would like a cite but he isn't going to get one, is he? So we disagree. Dumb Bob thinks that if the phone is causing her complications, she should look into getting away from it. You think that she might need the phone for an emergency or because the doctor might want to tell her about some test. Dumb Bob can understand her real need to contact her doctor and to get test information. Perhaps she could borrow a cell phone from a friend. But fighting this battle if it causes her such harm isn't a good idea, again in Dumb Bob's opinion. You are free to disagree. That's a strange thing to say. Most litigants don't appeal decisions that they agree with. Dumb Bob is pretty sure about that. No lawyer would appeal? So where do all those cases in the courts of appeals come from? Dumb Bob's problem with the current system is that the doctor or his staff and the insurance company know all the rules. If they screw up, the insurance company can just say that you have to pay. The doctor can then sue you or worse sell the supposed debt to someone who will sue and use the statement of account to prove its validity. Since you as a patient are probably, you know, sick, why should you have to deal with this? You don't know the rules. The doctor and the insurance company know the rules. They should inform you if something is covered or not. Dumb Bob doesn't think that is asking too much. Dumb Bob doesn't know the answer to this. Threatening to sue someone for a debt and not doing it is a bigger thing than the endless suits about overshadowing and the like, don't you think? What is more scary than "I'm gonna sue you if you don't pay!"? So is this a big deal or isn't this a big deal? Dumb Bob said that it was a violation not to sue after you threatened to sue. So of course there's a real danger they weren't just blowing smoke. The amount of money is about where you might want to be in a lawsuit, big enough to matter and not so big that it forces a BK. Dumb Bob is perplexed. You said at the start of this post that you knew something that a hundred lawyers that she might visit probably wouldn't know. It's supra but Dumb Bob will quote it again: "She could probably ask a hundred lawyers and not get the right answer which is that if they had not already filed the lawsuit at the time the threat was made a violation has occurred." Now you are claiming that what you said isn't true, that all they have to do is file after she sues them claiming they just weren't ready before. So which is it? Do you know? Dumb Bob would think she'd get information if she left her answering machine on to catch their rants. This can get around the rules that in some states make it illegal to record phone calls without both parties' permission. Of course she's not trying to get information for a case, she's trying to reduce her stress level. Really? Dumb Bob never gives any advice. Dumb Bob jibber jabbers. Who would take advice from someone named Dumb Bob anyway? But Dumb Bob does always want to know when he posts incorrect and/or dangerous anything. So far Dumb Bob hasn't gotten details on that from you. Dumb Bob has a more engaged personality that doesn't lend itself well to sitting back. If Dumb Bob is wrong about something, prove it to him with a cite.
Not remarkable at all. Out of all the law schools in the U.S. only one or two even offer any courses on consumer protection laws but almost all of them have classes on collections law. The number of lawyers who actually do court litigation is relatively small. Thousands of them become politicians or work for government in some capacity or other. And there might not even be 100 lawyers in most American towns to ask so if you stop and think about it, what I said isn't remarkable at all. Quite correct. I'm not going to do anybody's research for them for free and that don't mean I'm here looking to get paid either because I'm not. If I happen to know of a famous case I'll quote it but if I have to do research to find what they can find for themselves I'm going to get paid for doing it. You might try google for your answers, my signature line RSS feeds which are full of articles on a wide variety of subjects written by attorneys and other experts. The information you will find by following my RSS feeds changes almost by the minute and is constantly being updated from a wide variety of sources and all automatically without my having to change a thing. Then they are also ported to such places as Twitter, Facebook and most other social networks and that is also done automatically. If you can't find the answers that way then learn to use your local law library. That's where anybody can research stuff for free. Yes, I'm free to disagree and I did. They come from people and attorneys who think they can prove that the judge's decision violated some law or failed to take some law or decision of a higher court into consideration. Not many win. Then maybe Dumb Bob ought to be making the rules instead of the Doctors and Insurance companies so what has Dumb Bob done to get into the position of changing the rules? Posting here isn't going to change a thing. Doesn't make any difference what I think. Everybody has his own little ranch and for some that means making endless idle threats and for others it means filing lawsuits against those who don't pay. Which is the bigger thing is totally irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Getting served with a summons for not paying. That really freaks people out. I've never seen any law that said that and I've never seen any court decision that said that Creditors can force a BK under certain circumstances but if one is not forced into BK by creditors then nobody is ever forced into filing BK. People usually run to the supposed protection of the courts of their own free will. Of course I know. Suppose (for the sake of the conversation) that a plaintiff files a federal lawsuit against a 3rd party debt collector and has them served. Within a day or so after they are served they file a case against the federal plaintiff in local court and in their response to the federal case they claimed that they had already turned the case over to their attorney with instructions to file suit in local court but the attorney couldn't get it done in time to avoid the plaintiff's rush to federal court. While I have never seen that happen, I'd be willing to bet that the federal judge would be inclined to dismiss the federal case if such a situation were to develop. Such a defense coupled with a Rule 68 motion would probably put an end to the case very quickly. That's just my guess, of course. There have been several cases in various circuits, most notably in California, dealing with that very issue. As a result most debt collectors are afraid to leave any message whatever on any answering machines. Too much danger of it being heard by some person other than the intended recipient and getting them sued for having done so. As a result, about the only thing that might be proven through use of an answering machine is that harassment has occurred. Too many calls in too short a period of time. Even then it would have to consist of a great number of calls within a day or a week over a period of at least a couple of weeks before a successful case could be made of it. You might be surprised. According to Hedwig's post below he seems to think you just might be brilliant instead of dumb. If Hedwig believes that then so will many others. If Dumb Bob wants to know whether what Dumb Bob posts then Dumb Bob ought to research his/her statements before Dumb Bob makes them in order to assure himself/herself that they are correct and not potentially dangerous. I think I'll just let you continue without further comments from me. Have a nice day.
Let me explain about the I paid my portion amount. The doctors office did file the IVF with my insurance. My insurance did pay it. I had already paid my portion with the credit card. The insurance company sends out a form called EOB for explanation of benefits. The health insurance (United Healthcare) has a contract with the healthcare provider saying that the healthcare provider will not try to charge above and beyond the charges agreed to. This is a part of the contract. So, when I go over the bills, for some reason, the doctors office claims that I have not paid them but maybe $50 or so. In reality, I have paid them closer to $1000. They have not even credited me for that. I have contacted the insurance company and filed a complaint with them regarding this. The insurance company has assured me that it is illegal for the doctors office to continue to try to collect. I also went to my OB during this time in which I supposedly had the IVF. In fact, I had a sonogram that day. Thing is, in order to do IVF, there are many meds involved as well as sonograms of the uterine lining and the ovaries. Because my OB did sonograms of those and started me on a different fertility med, it is beyond clear that there is no way that I was on an IVF protocol. Supposedly, according to the RE billing, I had an embryo transfer on that date. Thing is, I had my period 3 days earlier. My uterine lining was very thin, consistent with just having had my period. I had early cycle ovaries, as in, no follicles or cysts that would have shown up later on. In addition, I had no egg retrieval. This means, not only would they had had to of transferred embryos in to a uterus that was completely not ready for it, where would the embryos have come from? I was billed for half the embryo transfer. Plus, since sonogram pictures are taken at the time of embryo transfers as well as pictures of the blastocysts, there are none. There are none because there were no embryos and no embryo transfer. My insurance did not refuse any claims. BUT, the doctors office never credited me for the majority of the money that I paid. Oh, and I had a nurse through the insurance who was following my progress. Even she can vouch for the fact that I never had IVF. IF the RE had attempted to do an embryo transfer with someone else's embryos, that would be illegal without proper consents. IF the RE attempted an embryo transfer with someone only a few days in to their cycle with a very thin lining, that too would have been lawsuit worthy. That is the same as simply destroying the embryos. I hope that explains it better. Oh..and I paid $10 copays several times where my insurance paid 100%. They gave me some bogus excuse as to why they no longer are listing those payments. They said since my insurance paid 100%, they are zero'ing out those dates?!?! Meaning, they are taking off my credits for what I paid!
First i want to say I'm sorry you had to sit through a arguement between 2 members which turned personal.What it looks like the dr is trying to erase history of any payments you made.I would go to state medical board and lodge a complaint,then i would file a complaint with the state attorney general.Do you have records of those payments.But like bob said you main worry is your health and the health of the baby.So can a friend or somebody step in and help you with the problem to take the pressure off you.We will try to help you through this with advice as much as we can.
I called my insurance back and checked on the formal complaint I had filed and added to it. I have been crying largely since Friday. I know..hormones are probably part of that. But still, this is really getting to me. Anyway, after speaking to the legal department there (rapid response) they said that the doctors office cannot legally be doing this and they are contacting the collector and the doctors office to try to get them to lay off. I hope it works. Not that this matters to a credit board, but you all seem so nice..I was being seen for recurrent losses. I am 18 weeks now. My past losses were at 16.5 weeks and then 3 1st trimester losses. I am not supposed to be stressed out like this. You would not think emotions could lead to pregnancy loss, but I have been so stressed out and now I have not felt the baby move in 3 days. I am sure all is fine, but I am just so frustrated over all this. I feel like I do not really know my legal rights. I do know how courts and appeals work and all. But I also know that I am in a conservative county in Texas which tends to, regardless of proof, rule against the people and for whatever business or doctor out there. If I felt the courts could be fair, maybe I would not feel this way. But we honestly pay our bills, file our taxes correctly, and so on. If we really owed the money, I would pay. But I have been backed up by my insurance, my OB, and my credit card company that I do not owe this money. My medical bills reflect that the IVF was not done and my credit card reflects that I was paying my copays for each visit I was there for. My EOBs reflect what there was a legal contract for me to pay.
The state of taxes has some of the better consumer protection laws in the nation i hope one of our texas people can help you with this.Listen you need to relax this will pass just go out and sit in the shade with a glass of lemonade and think about the future that what ever happens it will happen.So just sit down and relax go to a movie relax relax relax.Take the stress out of your life.there are better days ahead you've done all you can everybody is behind you.
I agree with Bob and jj. Your health is your main concern right now. If you don't have caller ID, get it. Don't answer calls you don't recognize. Don't cry. You're going to come out of this in fine shape. If you have to wait until after the baby is born to sue them, so be it. Just relax, keep your cool, and don't talk to them. I agree with one thing jj said that you should do right away--file a complaint with your state's Attorney General. Let them handle it. If it keeps up, call your Congressman or Senator. Most companies don't want Congressional complaints. But for now, file with the Attorney General, don't answer the phone, take it easy and have this baby.
C1Sucks, does the UCC qualify as a law? Most implementations call it an unfair and deceptive practice to threaten to take an action that is not intended to be taken. A UCC violation is an illegal action. If it is committed as part of a covered collection activity, the action is an FDCPA violation. Dumb Bob should continue being as dumb as he as demonstrated. He's absolutely correct in his statements; no need to change.
Yes, UCC does qualify as a law. If you read the definitions section it will tell you that UCC deals with secured debt such as vehicles and real estate. So when it comes to UCC read the definitions section first to see who and what it applies to. That is the first step before studying any law. All laws both state and federal tell you who and what the law applies to and what it is supposed to control. If you don't have that information then you are more likely to get wrong ideas and come up with some interpretation that is totally off the wall. I think you may be talking about UDAP instead of UCC. Some states have strong UDAP laws and others do not. A violation of any law is a violation, of course That is true as well.
Why don't we stick with helping this lady with her problem.Instead of trying to see who's smarter.Imagine how she feels posting on this forum and one person gets in a pissing match Personally i think its time to take this to the general lounge if you don't have any imput to help this lady who's at her wit's end.she doesn't need this.If this offends anyone I'm sorry it's not personal so don't take it personal.
The lady asked a question which was, I answered that question to the best of my ability to do so. Why is my answer not sticking with helping the lady? Then she went on to say, I believed that she was talking about UDAP or Unfair and Deceptive Practices Act, not UCC. I told her what I thought she was talking about and explained the differences to her. How is that trying to see who is smarter? She addressed the post directly to me, nobody else. Then she made the following statement and I agreed with her. I agreed with her. What is wrong with that?
The lady did not ask that question it was asked by someone else.why do you think that post was directed to you.This is my last post so if you answer make it a good one>
Then I suggest that you read both your state's implementation of the UCC and their interpretation of the debt collection laws. In my state they are tied together. Sorry... but I DO read the statutes before commenting. Dumbob is still right.
FWIW though I have answered questions that were not asked of me and have never thought it was not *kosher* Not trying to take sides and I think *Dumb Bob*is pretty cagey and cute and double speaks like a lawyer or a politician ; ) I fact I have always felt he was in the law profession just by what he doesn't write ; ) Woofer
