OK. I want some very informed and thoughtful opinions here. I was in a car accident in mid Nov. I was in 2 different hospitals' emergency rooms because of this (at different times). I have been nuts about paying the bills in a timely manner. I have done it perfectly. Both hospitals are Tenet hospitals. I pull my Experian. Here's what it says: A soft inquiry from Syndicated Office Systems Now. I'm talking with them at great length. They do the normal billing and collection for Tenet hospitals. Like they are an extension of the hospital's regular billing office. And IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS they run soft inquiries to confirm name, address, and they get our scores as a bonus. They only pull Experian. IF you screw your bill, then their collection division pulls a full report. Keep in mind, this is even if you have or are paying your bills on time. I was a cash customer (out of network). I have looked over my hospital information and it talks of dissiminating my information for the purposes of collecting insurance money etc etc... but nothing is stated that they'll run my credit in any form. Syndicated started by apologizing... then by stating that they run demographic info to confirm identity... and that they do it at the time of admission to simply confirm I am who I say I am. I told her that's why they looked at my driver's license. Here's the kicker: It isn't dated my date of admission, it's dated 10 days later. I could have made up info and been treated and gone... and Experian shows it as 1.30.02. A full 2 1/2 months after the supposed inquiry occurred and a full 1 1/2 months after the bill was paid. they even thanked me on my prompt payment.. Here are my issues: Where is their permissible purpose??? How do I know it's really one and the same inquiry? How do I know what info they did/didn't receive? How do I know how their inquiries are coded? (meaning: my file could be collection poisoned by this inquiry) She said they do it with every patient of Tenet. My first thoughts are class action... but I'll start with me. Ok, give me the arguments for and against so I can prepare a thoughtful demand letter tonight. Some of you guys have gotten to have fun with medical issues. Please, any thoughtful advice and links would be highly appreciated. It's my opinion it's clear cut impermissible purpose. especially since you know experian won't admit a 2 month screw up on reporting the date... fishy fishy
Sounds like they are trying to gather info on their patients, for what? WHo knows, marketing? How would you market a hospital, though. Did you give your SSN#? Could you file a suit on them for a soft inquiry? It would make me EXTREMELY nervous that a HOSPITAL is pulling a credit report for NO REASON WHAT SO EVER. Could they claim it was for account review? I'm really confused and basically thinking out loud. I'm curious to know what the answer to all of this would be. What about patient confidentiality? My friends mother is a nurse and she can't even mention to me "hey saw your mom in the ER the other day is she ok" unless my mom gave permission. Know what I mean? Done rambling.
No, I didn't give them my social security number. they had 999-99-9999. Doesn't matter, the report can still be pulled by name and address. My point is they still get my info, my score. they say that's all they get but how do I know what they get... Now, if the account had gone delinquent and they were trying to skip trace... I could almost understand it. But that's not the case here... so I'm really confused. I don't know if I could get actual damages off a soft inquiry (unless the coding shows as a collection account). If it does, the ftc has put out an opinion that collection inquiries in and of themselves (soft included) connote collection activity and thus are detrimental to the consumer. But again, my point is this: what's their permissible purpose? there is nothing in what I signed giving permission for social. and even drugged I didn't give them my ssn because they don't have the right to ask for it...
You know, I suspect that this is an information sharing deal. Credit bureaus also gather medical information, insurance claims info, etc. and if you were to apply for a large life insurance policy or file a lawsuit against an insurance company, its likely the insurer could pull some type of report on your medical history, etc. I don't know very much about this, but have seen references to it here and there. Maybe in exchange for their services, the CRAs get our medical info. Thinking back, it is interesting how much the attorneys for the insurance companies came up with on people who had filed personal injury suits. Would adding something to a file at a CRA in this category perhaps show up as a soft? Who knows? Definately food for thought though. L
oh God, I hadn't even thought of that... there's MIB, but I'm sure the large bureaus are always updating their databases... ugh.
Yep. I just don't know if they're considered a collection agency. Experian doesn't list permissible purpose (like collection activity) and the person at Experian today was DUMMMMMBBBBBB. I knew more than she did.
You know the worst part of all this, I wanted to pay the bill before leaving the hospital but it takes them several days to prepare it... I think they would've pulled my credit even if I had paid that day.
Marie, when you went through admissions and told them you would be a cash customer, did you pay in full at the end of your stay or did they bill you? I know you didn't authorize them to pull your credit but they may use that to verify the bill address.
they pull everybody as part of their billing system. If what they're telling me is true, then it's just name, address, and score. The score is my biggest issue. If it's more, how would I know whether they got a more full report? Just trust them??? nope.
yep. you're right. they'd give me the services regardless of whether I can pay or not... so what are they doing? It's not prequalification of credit... it's not extension of credit (I'd already paid)... But most people would never say a word about it. I'm guessing they're donating information of ours to the bureaus.
Marie, after reading your posting tonight, I spent some time looking over FCRA section 604 [§ 1681b] -- "Permissible purposes of consumer reports." I realize, of course, that you have read the law many times, so bear with me as I attempt to delve in regardless. Before I offer my thoughts regarding 604, it's worth noting that the previous section 603(d)(1) [§ 1681a] sets the stage for "permissible purposes" by listing only 3 types: ...for the purpose of serving as a favor in establishing the consumer's eligibility for (A) credit or insurance to be sued primarily for personal, family, or household purposes; (B) employment purposes; or (C) any other purpose authorized under section 604 [§ 1681b]. It's obviously "C" where we have to direct our attention in your case because a cash transaction with an entity (whether a hospital or a gas station or whatever) certainly doesn't establish that you were seeking eligibility for new credit or new insurance. Moreover, you clearly weren't applying for a job with the hospital upon admission as a patient. So, it seems to me that the question regarding whether or not the hospital can routinely request information about new patients from a credit reporting agency (exclusive of applications for new credit, insurance, or employment) must be examined vis-a-vis FCRA section 603(d)(1)(C) which clearly points the way to section 604. Here goes: FCRA section 604(a) [§ 1681b] lists only FIVE permissible purposes (my paraphrasing follows). Information may be released: 1) in response to a court order or federal grand jury subpoena 2) in response to the consumer's written instructions 3) to someone who is evaluating the consumer's qualifications for new credit; to review the continued creditworthiness of an existing credit customer; to evaluate the creditworthiness of a consumer whose account is in collection; as part of an evaluation for new employment, insurance, or government-issued license (that one surprised me); to evaluate the consumer as a potential investor; or "otherwise has a legitimate business need for the information (i) in connection with a business transaction that is initiated by the consumer; or (ii) to review an account to determine whether the consumer continues to meet the terms of the account." 4) to a child support enforcement agency 5) to a government agency setting up child support It's that bit under the third permissible purpose which I quoted in bold type that is bothersome to me. Perhaps you know far more than I what section 604(a)(3)(F)(i) actually means. It would appear that if you have initiated a business transaction, and the entity with whom you are transacting has a "legitimate business need," then that entity is entitled to request and receive personal information about you from a CRA. What is a "legitimate business need"? Finally, I was astounded to find that only ONE circumstance requires prior notification to a consumer that information will be requested from a CRA -- evaluation of the consumer for new employment. Section 604(b)(2)(A)(i) requires that "a clear and conspicuous disclosure has been made in writing to the consumer at any time before the report is procured" but only "for employment purposes" pursuant to the previous stipulation in 604(b)(2)(A). The tricky part for those companies evaluating an application for credit or insurance has to do with the eventuality that they may take "adverse action" -- in which case they have to comply with the full FCRA section 615 [§ 1681m]. I'm guessing that this is the only reason that potential creditors always inform the consumer in advance that they may check the consumer's credit. If, on the other hand, there is NO CHANCE that an adverse action will occur, then those duties to inform don't apply. I imagine this is why we aren't informed in advance whenever a soft inquiry is pulled. My conclusion: if the hospital can demonstrate a "legitimate business need" pursuant to section 604(a)(3)(F)(i), then they can pull a soft credit inquiry without notifying you. However, the remaining question needing an answer is: How have courts defined "legitimate business need"? Since I'm not an attorney, there's a great chance that my understanding of the law is incomplete and muddled. I would very much appreciate someone else giving their detailed views as well. Marie, I hope at least something here proves helpful. Doc
Thanks Doc. I truly appreciate a second set of eyes pouring over it with me. When my atty comes back into town I'm calling him. I've been reading and rereading it tonight. I'm a bit blind now too. yep. that's what I'm coming up with too. I talked with an expert tonight and his take is this: If the paperwork or any conversation I have with a hospital employee conveys that they're going to pull a report, and I agree to it as a condition of service, then they can. If no agreement is made, and it's not in their paperwork (and amazingly it isn't)... then he thinks I may have a real issue here. And after all, it'd be one thing if they used the information as a condition of service, but they can't. and they didn't. they provided service and then as an afterthought pulled my credit to make sure I wasn't lying on my address... Everybody I talked with at Tenet said they could see my point and that they'd be upset too if someone pulled any credit of any type without any real warning... I was impressed the manager I talked with told me she wouldn't pull another report simply to see the first inquiry (she knew that'd be a violation)... so I faxed her a copy of the report. My suggestion to her was that, if they're going to pull credit in any form, they need to specifically add that into their paperwork and make it PLAIN AS DAY!
Marie If the paperwork or any conversation I have with a hospital employee conveys that they're going to pull a report, and I agree to it as a condition of service, then they can. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How can SERVICE ever be CONDITIONAL on "PULLING A CREDIT REPORT"????
