? re: death of spouse and cc debt

MUST BE "JOINT" TO BE LIABLE.

They can try to "LIEN" a house...BUT IT IS "UNSECURRED" CREDIT CARDS NOT AGAINST ANY PROPERTY!!!

 

Send a DEATH CERTIFICATE and they will "WRITE IT OFF"...they do it all the time.

 

Exception to the above is a community property state:

"Community Property States: In the community property states of Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin, any property earned or acquired during the marriage--as well as any debts incurred during the marriage--are generally considered to be jointly owned. Therefore, most debts are considered joint. There are some situations where debts incurred before the marriage, or debts where the creditor was relying on only one income to repay the loan, are considered individual, but this may be difficult to prove. For all joint debts, the creditor will generally try to collect from the spouse. For individual debts, creditors may file in probate to try to collect."

 

Either the spouse or the dead person's estate is liable. It depends on the state laws regarding community property as mentioned above.

However being liable and collecting are two different things. I'd start with disputes, death certificates, etc. Make it a real pain in the ass for them to get their money.

 

DON'T FORGET~~We are talkin' UNSECURRED debt here!!!

I'm NOT sayin' don't pay if you can...if you can't...THEY SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE YOU!!!

 

This is interesting...I could drive my almost ex step-monster crazy. She remarried in 1998, forgot to divorce Dad, and is now screaming she is his widow. Wait til I let Peoples know that 20K CC debt might be collectible.

 

house is a community property whereas auto is not if it is in deceased person's name only and it goes to estate. A credit card debt in deceased person's name is not a community debt whereas saving bank account is community asset.

http://www.povertylaw.org/legalresearch/hotline/tx/shgs/widower - tx.htm

 

This would need to be paid out of the estate.
L

 

If you are NOT in a community property state, then an unsecured card in one (deceased) person's name is the responsibility of that person's estate. The responsibility does not pass to the spouse.

If you ARE in a community property state, and the debt was NOT clearly incurred prior to marriage, then the surviving spouse is jointly responsible even if their name was not on the account. That's the concept of community property - all assets of the marriage are SHARED, all liabilities of the marriage are SHARED.

I am not a lawyer; I am sure there are exceptions. But it is not cut-and-dried if you are subject to the laws of a CP state.

 

Yes to what reddevil said. Check your state laws. There are exceptions even in community property states. I don't live in one...lol.


L

 

Re: ? re: death of spouse and cc de

Does anyone know if the community property laws apply to assets incurred during the the marriage but before you moved to a community property state? Also is there any way to have a nuptial agreement preempt parts of it (are they defaults like probate that a will can override, or are the absoulute things you are stuck with by a 3rd party?). This may be good to know next time I am being tempted by a job in California, if I get married.

 

Re: ? re: death of spouse and cc de

Not an expert, but I believe a will can override some things. Ex - if you are married in a CP state, everything goes to the surviving spouse. But you can leave stuff to your kids explicitly in your will. You would have to check the intestate and testate laws of your particular estate.

I'm gonna check on community debts in Texas. I don't get mad I get even.

 

Re: ? re: death of spouse and cc de

SEND A DEATH CERTIFICATE...if they try to collect...DEAL WITH IT THEN...

WE ARE STILL TALKING "UNSECURED" DEBT HERE...

 

You are mistaken, any possible obligation of a non signatory spouse on a credit card in a community property State does not extend to a claim after death.

The ONLY claim that could be made would be on any portion of the estate of the deceased that is NOT in community property.

 

Here is a good outline from Idaho;
Debts of the Spouse Who Died
If your spouse's estate can't pay all the debts, you may or may not have to pay them yourself. It depends on what the debt was for.
You MAY have to pay:
1.     Joint Debts. These are debts, which the two of you agreed to pay. Most mortgages and home equity loans are joint debts. So are credit cards if you signed the application.
2.     Family Expenses. These include funeral bills and medical bills not covered by insurance.
3.     Community debts. These are debts incurred during the marriage.
Of course, you would only have to pay those debts if your spouse's estate could not pay for them.
You will NOT have to pay:
1.     Personal loans for which only your spouse signed that are not community debts.
2.     Credit cards in your spouse's name only that are not community debts.
3.     Department store accounts in your spouse's name only that are not community debts.
If the estate does not have enough money to pay these debts, the creditors lose. Generally, they cannot look to you for payment.
The Order in which the Estate's Debts will be Paid
If your spouse's estate can pay some, but not all, debts, the debts will be paid in the following order:
1.     funeral and burial expenses, and costs of probate,
2.     surviving spouse's or child's award (money that a court says is reasonable to support the spouse and child, or children, for nine months after the decedent's death),
3.     money owed to the U.S. Government or to the State of Idaho, or any local government (county, city, etc.).
All of these "special" debts must be paid before any other creditors are paid.
Notify Creditors
You should let your spouse's creditors know about any debts, which the estate cannot pay. Tell them that your spouse has died and that the estate cannot pay the debt. Also tell them that you are not willing to pay. You should also send a copy of the death certificate as proof of death. At the end of this guide is a sample letter you can use to tell your deceased spouse's creditors about the death.
When you send this letter, keep a copy for your records. Send the original by certified mail from the post office with return receipt requested so you can prove the creditor got it.
If the creditor keep trying to get you to pay the debt after getting the letter, call the Attorney General. The telephone number can be found in the Blue Pages, under "State of Idaho - Attorney General." Or call your local Area Agency on Aging for the number

 

Maybe its me, but thats about as clear as mud. Credit cards are joint debts if you signed the application. What is the difference between a joint debt vs a community debt? I know there is not much that is "separate" in TX, and you better have it documented. Whats its co-mingled boom its community.

 

Why Chat -

We're both technically incorrect.

CC debt that is NOT community debt is excluded, but from what I read, CC debt is assumed to be community debt, e.g., it's presumed to have been taken out to benefit the couple as a whole. From what I read, it appears to be very difficult to prove that it is not. If CC debt IS community debt, then the creditor can look either to the estate of the deceased, or to the community property. Only if it is determined that it is NOT community debt is the community property not vulnerable. In all cases, the non-community assets of the surviving spouse are not vulnerable. Those can include assets excluded by pre-nup, inheritances, and gifts received, among others.

 

I think you got it right there. Ex - almost ex step-m mentioned above: I recently discovered 30 acres of land in her name (thanks rootsweb!), as well as property she bought with her new hubby in OK. According to Dad's estate attorney, EESM must PROVE it is not community property. (Now remember new hubby is not really new hubby until the moment of my father's passing). I believe she will have to prove as well, that debts are not community, otherwise it is presumed.

I am not evil, and don't want land, house, etc. I just want the stuff she stole out of my Dad's house 1 week after he died. She never lived in the house, and the stuff stolen was actually easily provable separate property inherited from my gparents.

I will keep you guys posted.

 

As I understand the definition of "community debt" it is any credit arrangement that is entered into by either spouse to benefit community property. This would include a chattel loan, (furniture, appliances etc.), however reading the State statutes of Idaho and Cal. there is a CLEAR exclusion of personal loans and credit accounts, EVEN if there were charges on the accounts to purchase goods and services that benefit community property.

In other words, if a person signed a sales contract to purchase a new refrigerator for their home, the balance due on that contract would be inherited by the widow/widower as their debt, if, however, they had put the same refrigerator on a store revolving charge account or a credit card, the debt is NOT inherited.