Dealing with Afni, Inc

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by LittleLady, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. LittleLady

    LittleLady Member

    Hello, everyone!

    I got my first collection notice three days ago in the mail. It was from Afni, Inc with the original creditor listed as Verizon Communications, Inc. According to the collection notice the balance due is more than $300.00!

    But there's a problem. I've never been involved with Verizon!

    I turned 19 last December and have been living on my own for a little more than six months. Now is the first time I've ever been involved in legally binding contracts that results in bills. I pay the bills on time and none of the bills I receive come from Verizon.

    This collection notice was a mistake, obviously. So I did some research and found out that a lot of people are having problems with Afni, Inc. People being billed for things they never bought, people getting collection notices meant for other people (John Doe, no middle initial, gets collection notice for John F. Doe and the collection agency insists that he pay the balance anyway), people paying balances they don't think they owe, and it turns out that they don't, but they can't get their money back. Afni, Inc is also reported to be very unhelpful and uncaring.

    Hmm. Unhelpful and uncaring? I started to think that reporting this as a mistake wouldn't be as easy as I thought it would be.

    I called the toll-free number on the collection notice three times within an hour but the line was busy each time! A toll-free number with a busy line? That's never happened to me before. I was getting worried. I went online and found the website for Afni, Inc and saw that there is another toll-free number for collections. I called that one twice but it was busy, too!

    Then I was really worried. And suspicious. I just moved out on my own. I've never dealt with Verizon before and they have never called me or sent me a bill. And now I get a collection notice out of the blue from a collection agency with two phone numbers that are busy whenever I call. Something wasn't right.

    A mistake, highly improbable identity theft, or some weirdo scam, who knows. So I called Verizon. After more than five minutes on hold I got to a Collections person. We talked briefly and she told me to call the collection agency. I told her that both lines were busy. She said there was nothing she could do and told me to try calling at a later time. I thanked her and hung up.

    I got online again and went back to the page for Afni, Inc. I called their corporate office. The phone was answered none-too-promptly by a professional-sounding woman. I told her that I was calling about a collection notice from Verizon. I told her that I'd called two of their numbers but they were both busy. I recited the numbers and asked her if there was another number I could call. She gave it to me. I thanked her and hung up.

    I called the number and finally got through. I spoke to a young woman about the situation and... well you know how it goes. But it wasn't as bad as it could have been because I was lucky enough to get a polite worker who faked sympathy.

    Eventually she put me on hold and came back. We talked while someone else listened in. And guess what?

    It turns out that the collection notice is a mistake!

    Sort of.


    Apparently, the original bill that went unpaid is from four months in 1995. "Nineteen ninety-five?" I asked. "I was way too young to have Verizon in nineteen ninety-five!" The woman laughed. "Yes. You would have been eight years old."

    Not that it mattered to Afni, Inc!

    The woman told me that even though it was obvious that a parent had used my name, the bill still had to be paid. I told her I didn't have the money. Plus, why do I have to pay it? I was eight! She told me that the only way I could avoid paying the balance is by reporting this as fraud.

    Me: "...What?"

    To get out of paying the bill I'd have to formally report this as fraud to Afni, Inc and file a police report on my own. Then I'd have to send Afni, Inc a bunch of stuff for their records. Otherwise the collection notice would be valid and I'd have to pay the balance. If I didn't do something and didn't pay, they'd screw up my credit.

    Well of course I'm not going to do all that! My mother and I don't get along but fraud and police reports are serious business. I'm not going to have my own mother thrown in jail. So I told the woman I'd ask my mother to pay it. We finished up, I thanked her and hung up.

    Then I called my mom. I started to tell her about the call but I couldn't. She was being nice and I didn't want to ruin it. So we talked a little and that was that.

    So there you have it. I do hate Afni, Inc because:

    I got a collection notice, which scared me.

    I had to do a lot of research to find out what was going on with this company.

    Their toll-free lines were busy each time I called, which seems really fishy. Maybe it's sabotage.

    And most importantly: the fact that the account they have bought from Verizon Inc is for bills in an eight year old child's name, and Afni, Inc doesn't give a crap. I understand that Verizon has lost a bit of money and the balance needs to be paid. But my situation is unusual. Shouldn't my situation be treated differently since I was a kid at the time?

    The fact that my name is on the bill is just a technicality.

    Wouldn't getting rid of my account, calling Verizon and making them take the blame for not getting an ID be the best thing to do? It would certainly be the kindest and most sensible thing to do. Obviously my mother is at fault too, but... this situation is different. Fraud is when someone you don't know steals your info and buys plane tickets to Jamaica, then parties you out of several thousand dollars. This isn't fraud. This is just sad. And stupid.

    I also dislike Verizon. What, did ID not exist in '95? I'm going to call them today and ask if they'll call Afni Inc and cancel the debt. That way I won't have to tell my mom, my mom won't have to pay, then she and I will get along the same as we always do.

    I'll post again and tell you what happens with Verizon. Thanks for reading.

     
  2. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member

    Is it possible that?

    Is it possible that your mom didn't do it either? You just might want to at least attempt to find out what social security number was used to open the account or what address the phone line was connected at and when.

    Although parents have been known to use their children's social security number to obtain services or even credit cards and then run up huge bills leaving the child to find out about it after they reach maturity and try to get credit, that may not be the case here. There might be some other answer to it and maybe she isn't the culprit at all.
     
  3. jam237

    jam237 Well-Known Member

    #1) Send a validation letter to them demanding conclusive validation of the debt. Both that you are supposedly the correct debtor, and that the amount character, and legal status of the debt is complete, accurate, and verifiable, with no discrepancies.

    Through the validation process you should find out if your SSN was used; or if the account is supposed to be for another LittleLady, and AFNI decided that you were close enough.

    Don't contact them by phone, and tell them that it is inconvenient for them to do the same.

    I would skip go, and send the validation letter to AFNI's corporate offices, and document that their agent already expressly stated that there is no way for this account to be your account.

    Also check out the statutes of limitations for your state, unless the SOL is 12 years, you have another affirmative defense.

    #1) Fraud
    #2) Even if it were not fraud, an eight year old can not enter into a contract.
    #3) Statutes of Limitations.
     
  4. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    Afni is becoming very interesting.

    A simple search on ripoffreport.com shows a total of 95 complaint threads started over the period from 8-10-05 to 1-21-07. Of these, 63 of them are between 1-5-07 and 1-21-07.

    In other words, 32 complaints over 17 months is about 2 per month.
    Now, 63 complaints in 16 days, or about 4 per day, an increased complaint rate by 60 times the prior long term average.

    Note that the above counts are based on new complaint threads. There may be additional distinct complaints added to existing threads, or other consumer comments added might be from consumers who had already complained in their own thread, which would require more work to sift out. The shift in volume, however, even when measured in this crude manner, is huge.

    The complaint rate appears to have "hocky-sticked" since the first of the year.


    It appears that Afni has massively ramped up their rate of sending out collection letters following Christmas, with their usual "problems" in sending them to the wrong party. Alternatively, their rate of misidentification has increased massively.

    The increased level of complaints has been going on now for about 2 weeks. On ripoffreport.com, consumers reporting on them are beginning to notice this upsurge, too.

    Complaints.com shows a smaller number of consumer complaints (5 or 6), but the nature of complaints is similar.

    Budd Hibbs site shows them as the current "most active" debt collector, which presumably means "most active" in terms of generating complaints.

    Regulatory agencies should not be far behind, as this level of complaints would likely result in statistical visibility above their normal complaint "noise" level, if some fraction of consumers file complaints with their state AGs. Visibility of complaints of similar problems may tip consumers more toward filing such regulatory complaints.

    BBB shows substantial complaints, but all generally considered resolved, so they consider them to be "satisfactory". It may take a month or two for an upsurge in complaints to show up on BBB, so it should not be surprising if nothing is there yet.


    The complaints are practically uniformly that Afni is attempting to collect on a debt the consumer claims they do not owe. Note that this is also the major type of complaint prior to this recent upsurge, so it may be a systematic defect in their collection and compliance processes, only the scale of activity has changed.

    Mostly, they appear to be from alleged Verizon accounts from about 1994 to 1997. As such, they would be both unreportable on consumer credit reports, and probably out-of-statute (SOL) as well. Afni would thus be limited to asking nicely, with a strong incentive to resort to intimidation and bluff, since they largely have no real legal options.

    Most consumers report they have never had a Verizon account. In some cases, they have verified with Verizon that Verizon shows no accounts in their name, in others, they are current Verizon customers and have been for some time, so it is unlikely that they would have been able to open an account even if there had been an old account in their name opened thru id theft.

    In a few cases these are Verizon customer service errors sent to collection. A search on the Web for complaints on Verizon will show a long-standing pattern of such problems. There also appears to be a cluster of Dish Network billing and customer service problems resulting in Afni collection accounts, but these don't seem to be connected to "misidentification" like the Verizon complaints.

    These mostly do NOT appear to be "id theft", but instead, dunning the wrong party by Afni. Partial name matches, same name in different town, match to maiden name, which wasn't in use by the consumer during the period the account was opened, same town but address consumer never lived at, etc. It appears that consumers are reporting that Afni is dunning based on such matching, presumably running the information from OOS accounts against some databases, with no confirmation by other identity information (SSN) to screen out misidentification prior to dunning. This, combined with how they are handling disputes from consumers receiving such letters, may be resulting in collection of substantial payments from consumers who do not, in fact, owe anything.

    On receiving consumer calls disputing "debts" they have never heard of, consumers may be given the "choice" of "regardless of what you say, you have to pay it, or else file police reports, fraud affidavits, and send us a bunch of documentation, including your full identity information (consumers can really trust them with this), and we will decide whether it is enough".

    Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Play up the formality, the time and trouble, the consumer's fear of making any mistake in an official report for which the they have yet to receive any documentation, whether the police will believe them, whether they will somehow get in trouble, the implied difficulty of getting Afni to "accept" their claim even then.

    First CA rule: Always stay in control. We will decide if you owe us anyway!, etc. You don't want to do all that? Then you have to pay us!

    You paid us when you didn't really owe it? That was your error. We told you what to do, and you didn't do it. Too bad! Not our fault it's so much trouble! We didn't do anything wrong!

    Now have proof you didn't owe it and want your money back? I don't have the authority to do that. We will have to research that and get back to you! Yeah, right. The check is in the mail.


    A classic "force". All paths lead to "It is simpler to just pay us".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_force

    Misidentified accounts are not technically "id theft" from a law enforcement perspective, since there is no crime committed or criminal to track down, yet Afni may be turning upside down the "id theft" FACTA requirements to discourage consumer disputing of misidentified "debts" by misdirecting consumers to believing that the accounts are due to id theft rather than due to their own errors, in order to then encourage them to pay small value debts they do not owe, probably even knowing their own rates of misidentification. At the same time, they may also be causing a bunch of spurious "id theft" reports to be generated by using this tactic.


    Here is a consumer who reports that they filed a complaint with the FBI, got a call back from them and were assured that it was a scam, and that they should file a complaint with their local police. A local police report would be a requirement to keep fraudulent accounts off consumer reports, but even substantial complaints nationally may not produce any visible ripple if reported locally.
    http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff230607.htm
     
  5. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member

    In the final analysis there is only one way to deal with Afni and others like them and that is to sue them.

    A much better way that that would be Congress putting severe penalties on debt collectors who wrongfully attempt to collect from people who don't owe what is claimed. I doubt that is likely to happen anytime soon.
     
  6. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    "Apparently, the original bill that went unpaid is from four months in 1995."

    "I was way too young to have Verizon in nineteen ninety-five!" The woman laughed. "Yes. You would have been eight years old."

    Then on its face, whether id theft or misidentification, it is not yours. End of story. Your drivers license with DOB is all the documentation you would need to prove it, to either the police or a judge. And on a 12 year old debt, it's probably out of statute anyway (check for your state).

    All further collection activity on their part is deceptive and illegal, and they know it.


    "The woman told me that even though it was obvious that a parent had used my name, the bill still had to be paid. "

    First, how "obvious" is it that a parent had used your name? They are sending out so many erroneous dunning letters, it is more likely just another one.

    What IS "obvious" to them is that if you were eight at the time, if they want to get any money from you, they should find some other basis than that you opened the account. You are more "collectable" than either an id thief, or the actual debtor, wherever they are, so while you are here, and even though they clearly know you don't owe it, lets go after your money, anyway. This is where they really cross the line, in knowing you don't owe it, yet pressing for payment from you anyway.

    But if they want to get paid, they first have to set you up, so you will want to pay something you don't owe.


    "To get out of paying the bill I'd have to formally report this as fraud to Afni, Inc and file a police report on my own. Then I'd have to send Afni, Inc a bunch of stuff for their records. "

    Notice their emphasis on how "hard" this is going to be. And that this is the only way to get out of paying. Another part of the set-up. They are giving you two, and only two, "choices", just like you would a two year old: Do all this stuff to avoid paying, or pay us. In fact, here they may be "overshadowing" the language in their own letter that probably gave you other choices, such as "disputing", and "requesting validation".


    "Otherwise the collection notice would be valid and I'd have to pay the balance. If I didn't do something and didn't pay, they'd screw up my credit."

    Patently false. More than 7.5 years, so they can't report it. Every debt collector knows this, so this is intentional deception, FDCPA violation. That is why they like to say it verbally, and never in writing. Also if you don't do what they say the notice is now "valid", whatever that means. Probably refers to FDCPA language about them assuming the debt is valid if you don't dispute. Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, such as that your were eight? They didn't mention verbally you can simply "dispute", and "request validation" in writing, and that if you do, they have to stop collection activities until they provide it? It better be in their letter.

    They are sending you down a different path: The "file fraud documents (really hard), or pay me" path, to divert you from the more direct path that guarantees you FDCPA rights. And once they set that up, just remove the "file fraud documents" path as an option! You can't go to the police! What would happen to your poor mom!


    "Well of course I'm not going to do all that! My mother and I don't get along but fraud and police reports are serious business. I'm not going to have my own mother thrown in jail. So I told the woman I'd ask my mother to pay it. We finished up, I thanked her and hung up.

    Then I called my mom. I started to tell her about the call but I couldn't. She was being nice and I didn't want to ruin it. So we talked a little and that was that."

    Notice how they set you up, directing you to a choice between paying them, and sending your poor mom to jail. Based on their record of dunning the wrong party, she may not even have done anything, and they probably neither know or care anyway, but this is the choice they want you to make.

    And how smoothly did she change to this tack, once it was clear you didn't legally owe the debt since you were eight at the time!

    Slick!

    At nineteen, and just leaving home, you look like the perfect mark!
    But you were sharp enough to do your homework.


    And what legal action could they take against you, even if YOU had opened the account? Nothing! Can't report. Can't sue. Even if they could report, you could probably get it off based on your driver's license DOB alone, with at most a little prodding from your state AG, or even BBB.

    As far as your mom goes, worst case, if she had actually opened it in your name, this is 12 years later. Has criminal SOL run, under the laws of 12 years ago? How high a priority to a DA is a 12 year old $300 maybe fraudulent account? And regardless of whether they think it is "obvious" this involves your parent, from your own research, it is probably more obvious to you that it is likely to be just another erroneous dunning letter from Afni.


    Can't blame them for trying? Sure you can.


    At some point, they knew, or should have known, that they were collecting from a consumer who did not owe the debt. The lady you talked to DID know, may even have pulled your credit report and verified your age, and that is why she had to adjust her tactics.

    At that point, they crossed the line from "debt collection" to "con game".
     
  7. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member

  8. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    You may want to pull direct copies of your 3 credit reports, to see what "rat droppings" they have left behind.
     
  9. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member

    Thats good advice. Need to keep up with those credit reports constantly.
     
  10. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    Here are three recent (2007) Sheriff's log complaints by consumers receiving letters from AFNI, as reported in the La Cañada Valley Sun weekly:

    http://www.lacanadaonline.com/articles/2007/01/18/news/lnws-blotter0118.txt
    "...
    Saturday, Jan. 13
    ...
    1700 block of Bonita Drive, LCF, a resident reported that she received a letter from AFNI, Inc. stating that over $2,000 was owed due to a Verizon cell phone that was registered in her name. The account was opened in Indiana. The victim did not have a Verizon phone, nor had she been in Indiana.
    ...
    Thursday, Jan. 11

    2100 Mayfield Ave. in LCR, a man received a collection notice from AFNI, Inc collection agency concerning a Verizon Communications account. According to AFNI, the man owed over $1200 for a cell phone account. He has never had an account with Verizon.
    ...
    Monday, Jan. 8

    500 Humphrey Way, LCR, a man received a collection notice from AFNI, Inc collection agency concerning a Verizon wireless account that had been opened in Diamond Bar. The man did not open this Verizon account.
    ..."
     
  11. LittleLady

    LittleLady Member

    Update Part I

    Friday was a very busy day. I called Verizon shortly after posting here. I said I was calling about a collection notice and was transferred to a collections person. I briefly told her everything that had happened so far with Afni except for the parts about my mother.

    The woman said there was nothing she could do and suggested that I find out if Afni had any options for me. I told her about the fraud option and that all they had offered me was a fifty percent discount to settle the debt. I reiterated that I was eight years old at the time and obviously didn't sign up for their service, and asked if Verizon could call Afni and cancel the debt or have Afni get rid of my account. She asked me to hold, so I did.

    She returned a couple of minutes later suddenly acting very sympathetic. She restated the details of my story for the benefit of whoever was listening in, I guess, and I agreed. She then told me that there was nothing Verizon could do. She apologized and told me that if she was in my situation she would take the settlement to avoid any problems. She sympathized about my situation some more and wished me luck. I thanked her and hung up.

    Later I called Verizon's corporate office. I told the woman who answered that I was calling about a collection notice that I didn't owe and said that I wanted to talk to someone there who could do something about it. I made sure to add that I had already called the collection agency so she wouldn't think I was trying to get out of paying or something. She transferred me to a professional-sounding woman and I told her the same things I'd told the woman at Verizon. She inadvertently (or maybe intentionally?) gave me an idea.

    So I called the police department and asked how to file a police report. The woman demanded details, so I told her very briefly about the collection notice and said that Afni told me that I had to file a police report. The woman put me on hold, then came back and for some reason said I had to give her my full name, address and telephone number. I told her I didn't want to file a report, I just wanted to know the process of filing a report. She told me that she was just taking my info and would have someone call me back. She seemed impatient and irritable, so I gave her everything she asked for, thanked her and hung up.

    A polite and friendly man called me back a few minutes later. During the course of our conversation he told me that I could submit a "disclaimer" to Afni instead of a police report and that should be enough. He said he didnâ??t see why a collection agency would need a police report in the first place, but if that's their policy I should go ahead and file one. I told him that I'd try the disclaimer first and call back if I needed the police report. He said okay, I thanked him and hung up.

    Then I called Afni. I spoke to a guy this time. He pulled up my account and I told him that I wanted to file a disclaimer instead of filing a police report. He said he didn't know anything about a disclaimer, but told me that I could go online and print out a fraud affidavit from consumer.gov/idtheft, then fill it out and send it to Afni along with everything they had requested except the police report. I thanked him and hung up. Hmm. The first woman (the one who said it was obvious that a parent had used my name) knew how much I didn't want to file a police report. But she didn't mention a fraud affidavit instead of a police report. I wonder why?
     
  12. LittleLady

    LittleLady Member

    Update Part II

    Which brings me to today. Wow, ten replies! Thank you so much for the helpful information and reassurance! So far Iâ??ve taken no action aside from calling all those people on Friday. Since then I've been doing more research. It isnâ??t even research, really... I'm just reading other peopleâ??s horror stories about Afni and Verizon and even Dish Network and finding out what they did to resolve their issues.

    Cap1sucks, I donâ??t remember this address but I remember my mother saying the name of this street years ago. So I guess we did live there and my mom did do it. Itâ??s surprising. I never would have taken her for the kind of woman who did things like this. If youâ??re going to use your childâ??s name you should at least pay the billâ?¦

    Jam237: I went here: http://www.fair-debt-collection.com/SOL-by-State.html#23 and it turns out that the statute of limitations is long past expired. And if an eight year old cannot enter into a legally binding contract, I guess Iâ??m in the clear since the woman at Afni says I was eight and the dates Afni has for this bill supports that fact.

    Ontrack: Yes, they did offer the "dispute" option in their notice. Only to keep themselves out of legal trouble, I guess. Iâ??ll take your advice and get my credit reports. Iâ??m planning to call the credit reporting agencies to try to get rid of this problem today, so I think I should wait until after all this is cleared up (presumably after Afni tries and fails to put this debt on my credit reports) to get them. That way Iâ??ll have the most current info and wonâ??t have to pay for them.

    What do you think of this course of action: Ignore Afni and deal with the credit report agencies directly.

    I read somewhere that credit report agencies wonâ??t knowingly take information about minors, so Iâ??ll call today to find out if that is true. If it is, I was planning to tell them about this situation, mention that minors cannot enter into legally binding contracts and tell them that the statute of limitations has expired. I was hoping that theyâ??d see that I was not and am not responsible for the debt and would ignore any attempts made by Afni to put negative stuff on my credit reports.

    Another question: since Afni canâ??t hurt me I donâ??t have to deal with them anymore, do I? They canâ??t even take me to court because the statute of limitations has expired. So can I ignore them? Or should I send them a letter saying the same things I plan to tell the credit report agencies today and ask that they not contact me again?

    Then again... if Afni can't report this to the credit report agencies and they can't take legal action against me, then I don't have to do anything at all! Should I just not do anything and pretend this never happened?
     
  13. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member


    That is true enough of course but there can be lots of reasons she didn't. Being judgmental now isn't going to improve your family relations any even if you say nothing to her about it. Good family relations are always far more important than money or what some family member did years ago.
    Don't trust any internet site run by an individual for such important information as you need here. They simply can't be relied on to keep all their information up to date. There are only 3 sources of information about statute of limitations I trust. The first one I trust is Lawdog.com and the second one is Bankrate.com
    I like bankrate better because it is easier to figure out exactly which one applies to a given situation. But the final and only real source of such information is a local law library and the annotated statutes for your state. In your case, you won't need to go that far under any circumstances.
    Don't count on that too much.
    Don't count on that either. Always keep up with your credit reports. You will be glad you did sooner or later.
    Don't count on the thought they can't take you to court because the statute of limitations has expired. They can take you to court at any time and they can get a judgment even 20 years or more after the SOL has expired. It isn't illegal in most states to sue on debts that are beyond STAT. Companies such as Afni do it all the time and win and they can do it to you too. If they sue you will have to answer their summons with a properly prepared answer and provide affirmative defenses plus file motion to dismiss. If you fail to answer properly they will get their judgment and it will be for far more than the amount they demand now. Once you have properly answered and filed motion to dismiss based on SOL the court has no choice but to dismiss. You will want to file to dismiss WITH PREJUDICE because if you don't put that part in they can resell the debt to some other company and the whole nightmare can start all over again. In the event they did sue and you file motion to dismiss the chances are they will move to dismiss leaving out the WITH PREJUDICE. Their motion to dismiss will be granted every time leaving them the option to refile or sell the debt.

    Rules of civil procedure in some states such as New York, North Carolina and many others do not allow either party to dismiss without the written permission of the other party. That don't stop the court from granting their motion to dismiss unless you come back and file an objection to the dismissal.
    It is things like that which make knowing the rules of civil procedure and rules of evidence so important.
    I wouldn't tell them anything at all. This is a classic example when a full cease & desist letter is the most appropriate answer. There is a much better way than Cease & Desist but I won't mention that because I think C&D is plenty good enough in this instance. Your letter doesn't need to be fancy and it don't need to have any legal stuff in it at all. A simple sentence should suffice .

    Dear sirs:

    This is my notice to you under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act that you are to cease and desist from any communication with me by any means whatever.

    ____________
    Signed.

    Then send a photo copy of their demand letter along with it so they know who you are and what debt you are talking about.

    Then get a recent copy of your credit report before contacting the credit bureaus about it. Maybe they put it on your credit report and maybe they didn't. Once you know that they did then you can dispute.
    They can take legal action and they can report so don't get complacent. You need to build your defenses now and keep the paperwork in a safe place for many, many years. You just might need it someday. You can be glad you didn't need it later. Better safe than sorry.
     
  14. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    "It isn't illegal in most states to sue on debts that are beyond STAT."
    It may be illegal if they "know" it. Of course, they pick and choose what they claim to know.

    It may run afoul of FDCPA, and state laws, including state bar codes of conduct.

    The point is, and I would agree with the above, you can't just ignore things, even if you know you are right. You keep close track of your credit reports, attack aggressively any errors, and use whatever the law allows to promptly dispute any collection attempts.

    There are scum in this world who figure there is nothing wrong with doing anything they can get away with.
     
  15. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    As far as ignoring the CA, and dealing with the CRAs, at this point, it is the CA that is demanding payment, and until you find their TL on your reports, or at least an inquiry from the CA, there isn't any basis to deal with the CRAs. There is nothing to dispute thru the CRAs.
     
  16. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    Keep it simple, essentially as Jam has suggested:

    Based on the CA's letter to you, send them a letter, CRRR, that you dispute the debt, and request validation. As Jam suggested, include in that letter that their agent had concluded there was no way this could be your account, since you would have been eight when the account was opened.

    Include a copy of their letter, and keep copies of all, along with the Certified receipt, and Return receipt, in your files. Do this immediately. You want to have sent it within 30 days of receiving their initial letter, be able to show when you sent it, and be able to show when they got it, to preserve your FDCPA rights.

    If they take any other collection action, including calling you, sending dunning letters, placing TLs on your credit reports, or even suing you, after receiving your validation letter but before sending validation, they have violated FDCPA and you can sue.

    You want to preserve that right to sue under FDCPA.
     
  17. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    As you have found, stay off the phone.

    Neither the CA, nor apparently Verizon, will do anything by phone to help you. It should be clear that they are both scum, covering for eachother.
    You don't get your advice from your opponent.


    Yes, they can hurt you, but they have to break laws to do so. The problem is, they have already shown they are willing to break those laws, so you CYA.
     
  18. cap1sucks

    cap1sucks Well-Known Member

    My suggestion to send a full Cease & Desist does adequately preserve her right to sue under FDCPA.

    If they violate cease & desist that is a violation of FDCPA in and of itself and no other cause is needed. In the event that they violate she would have several options as to how to proceed with the lawsuit. She could take it to federal under FDCPA. The inherent problem with that is that they might prevail with the old inadvertant error or mistake routine. So, in order to circumvent that problem she might want to sue in local court for injunctive relief or possibly bring an estoppel action against them first, whatever her counsel would recommend. If they violated after having lost in local court they would be in deep trouble from both local court and a federal case for violation of FDCPA.
     
  19. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    You could do that, but you might want to see their hand first, if they even have one. They are sure working hard to extract money without showing it.

    Worst case, if they pulled some stunt to get a default judgement, for example, by filing in some other jurisdiction and sewer service, you would probably be in a stronger position to both vacate and sue for damages having sent a dispute and validation request receiving no response, than just a C&D.


    At this point they are BSing her left and right. They know she's a kid, and even though they know she doesn't owe the debt, they press for payment. It is deliberate, it is fraudulent, and it is disgusting. That is the game they have chosen to play, intentionally, and they define their actions by what they expect to get away with, not by what is legal. Since all "information" she has is by phone, it is deniable and hard to hang them on it, which is why they prefer to do their lying by phone.

    The debt is not hers. The debt is past SOL. The debt is not reportable.
    But, they can lie, they can threaten, they can sue, and they can report, even if not legally. They have already shown that they are willing to cross the line, both by sending out such letters in the first place, and by their phone tactics. They are still probably unlikely to sue, however, as they may actually have more to lose than to win.



    How then should you proceed to best protect your interests (minimize damage, and maximize ability to respond agressively), when you know from research that you are dealing with a rogue debt collector?


    If you dispute, they are required to, from that point forth, notify anyone they notify about the debt that it is disputed. If they don't, you can sue.

    If you request validation, within 30 days, they must provide it before any further action. If they don't, you can sue.

    If you go down the id theft route, you can kill this dead also. If either CA or CRA don't cooperate, you can sue.

    If reported, you can get removal by CRAs, either based on obsolete, misidentification, or id theft, and if not, you can sue.


    No problem disputing and requesting validation, seeing if they even respond, just to add to your case should you need to sue later. In addition, it also gives you a reason to sue if they re-age and report the account, without giving them the option of just removing with no liability, which a C&D alone would not provide. They report, you have them, you can sue.

    You can still send C&D if they send junk validation, and they might send something that totally removes the psychological "pin" they are trying to achieve by threatening her mom.

    Or if they do just send junk validation ("Chaudhry" affidavit: "I swear our records show you owe it, and that is all the validation we have to send you."), but they know (or a reasonable person would know) that based on your age the account couldn't possibly be yours, they probably don't want to defend their trash in court and run the risk some judge will be less than impressed. To give a judge something to work with, you want to at least be able to show you disputed.

    Or they might send nothing, and move on to the next sucker.
     

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