If you do not own the property, you do not owe the property taxes. The lien is against the PROPERTY. Whoever ended up with this property after your bankruptcy owes the taxes. The county's (state's, city's or other taxing authority's) remedy for unpaid taxes is to sell the property from underneath you for the taxes due. But you do not own the property. I don't see how this can legally remain on your credit report more than seven years post-bankruptcy, paid or not. When were you discharged from bankruptcy?? When did you lose the property??
I orginally filed Chapter 11 in June of 1992..I was converted to 7 in 1996. I lost the property in 1993 or 94. This lien was prior to the original filing by a few months. Maybe I should check with the county on this. Maybe it is possible to get it dismissed. Usually unpaid property taxes are paid in escrow. I would think that the lender or whoever got the property should in some way be responsible for this. I guess it would be worth a try to check it out further.
Those taxes have already been paid on this property so you don't owe anything for them. The lien should be voided- released for 3 reasons. 1-You don't own the property. 2-The lien is paid. 3-If you were to pay the taxes the lien holder would be getting paid twice.
Let me make this clear. THE LIEN IS ON THE PROPERTY, NOT YOU. IF YOU DON"T OWN THE PROPERTY YOU DON"T OWE ANYONE ANYTHING. YOU SHOULDN'T CARE IF THE LIEN WAS EVERY PAID - IF IT WASN"T, IT IS THE PROBLEM OF THE CURRENT PROPERTY OWNER. IF you lost the property in 1993 or 1994, the seven years are up - it shouldn't be on your credit report. The language relating to unpaid liens in the FCRA would only apply IF YOU STILL OWNED THE PROPERTY. At this time the county has nothing to do with this.Send the CRAs a copy of the foreclosure judgement entry (it is over seven years old, right?) and tell them to take it off - it is not you obligation.
Thanks you for this information ....I think your right. I am going to give this a shot with the county this morning when the tax offfice opens up. I got into public records again and found the original lien and the rerecorded lien and the BK ...so I will try to reason with them on this. I will let you know how it goes.
While you're at the county, find the records for the property and get a copy of the deed transferring the property to whoever ended up with it after bankruptcy. That is your proof that you don't own the property. Maybe this analogy will help. You could have sold the property after the lien was recorded without paying the lien. This would have extinguished your obligation to pay the property taxes, but whoever bought the house would not have clear title. The lien would still be "attached" to the house. The buyer would normally deduct the amount of the lien (and an additional discount) from the price he paid you since the lien becomes his problem. And he would have had to pay you cash. Few banks would grant a mortgage on the property without the lien being paid. The re-recorded lien may have your name on it, but it is truly not yours once it is titled in someone else's name. The current owner's title to the property is subject to any pre-existing liens that have not been satisfied. It's his problem to pay it. It doesn't matter if he purchased it at a Sheriff's sale or it was given to him.
thanks for putting me on the right path. I called the county this morning ...they can't figure it out, they are reseaching it and they are going to call me back. It seems that the assessor parcel number has changed possible because the property was split. I don't know and they don't know. There is currently no lien against the property. I suspect it is a foul up with the county and county records. There is no doubt there is some screw up here. Let's hope I can get this straightened out. I live 70 miles away from there now so I don't want to have to drive there, if I possible don't have too. I just hope they find the answer and it get's off my back and credit report.
Here is the story. This was a supplemental tax bill for the period from 12/18/90 to 2/14/91. During that time I was put on title with the then owner of the property for the purpose of getting a loan. Since it was a supplemental bill it was treated as an unsecured note. And the lien is in both our names. I took title in my name alone on 2/14/91. Because it was unsecured it did not go with the property. I did phone them in 92 when I got the bill and told them I was in Chapter 11. i guess the question is now, since it was an unsecured bill, should it have been wiped out in the bankrupcy especially since they had knowledge of it. I don't think I included them in the original filings because I had no knowledge of the debt. I may have to try to take this to court. Their excuse for making this unsecured is that by the time they figured this out the title had changed on the property into my name fully and they treated this as a sale.
Three things: 1. There is no such thing as an unsecured lien. If they have filed a lien, it is on the property - property that you do not own. If they foreclose on the lien, they are foreclosing on a property in which you do not have an interest. They cannot put a lien on you as an individual. You have stated that they re-recorded a LIEN on real estate that you do not own. 2. Treating the property transfer as a sale does not make a real estate lien your personal debt. The new owner is responsible for any unpaid property taxes. This is one of the primary reasons a title search is performed in real estate transactions - the buyer doesn't want to get stuck with undisclosed unpaid property taxes. 3. They are telling you that you owe this because it is a suopplemental tax bill, but they have recorded a lien on the property. This simply doesn't jive. The person you talked to at the county offices may not know what they are talking about. [disclaimer - there may be some specific law in your state that makes the owner at the time a tax bill is issued personally responsible for unpaid supplemental property taxes. I have never heard of such a law.] Also, there may still be an angle on the bankruptcy even though they weren't listed when you filed. The question of why they think you owe property taxes on property you don't own should be resolved first..
I made a mistake... I am so used to calling property taxes a lien that I did not read the item correctly Also on my credit report it states in the status: County lien filed. I just went back into public records to be clear and its called a judgement . Never mind that no one was served at the time. I have left a call for the man at the county that handles this stuff to get back to me...I don't know if it will do any good. There seems like a lot of stuff here that really does not fit in with the law. But I really don't know the law that well regarding all these issues. i should even check to see if supplemental taxes were applicable, since he was on title, I went on for a period of 3 months, and then he went off. I guess they probably were but who knows how the law is writtten.
Ahhh. A judgment is another story. It is probably discharged in bankruptcy, especially if you can prove that you they had knowledge of the bankruptcy: § 524. Effect of discharge (a) A discharge in a case under this title-- (1) voids any judgment at any time obtained, to the extent that such judgment is a determination of the personal liability of the debtor with respect to any debt discharged under section 727, 944, 1141, 1228, or 1328 of this title, whether or not discharge of such debt is waived; § 523. Exceptions to discharge (a) A discharge under section 727, 1141, 1228(a), 1228(b), or 1328(b) of this title does not discharge an individual debtor from any debt-- . . . (3) neither listed nor scheduled under section 521(1) of this title, with the name, if known to the debtor, of the creditor to whom such debt is owed, in time to permit-- (A) if such debt is not of a kind specified in paragraph (2), (4), or (6) of this subsection, timely filing of a proof of claim, unless such creditor had notice or actual knowledge of the case in time for such timely filing; Property taxes CAN be discharged if they're old enough. The facts that you have provided suggest that they are dischargeble. The failure to list the taxes in your bankruptcy schedules is not necessarily fatal either. I believe there is case law that states that if they would not have received anything from your bankruptcy, the debt is discharged (and the judgement void). Finally, you should look at the dates of the court case giving rise to the judgment. If the case was initiated or ANY action taken on the case while you were in bankruptcy, they've violated the bankruptcy automatic stay and you may well have grounds to have the judgment vacated as it was obtained in violation of the stay. And there are still the issues surrounding how they got the judgment - service, and whether you were actually liable for the debt in the first place.
Thank you for all your help. What i can tell you is that I recorded the Bk with the county recorder on 6/2/92 and they recorded the judgement on 6/22/92. They were certainly put on notice by the recordation that I was in Chapter 11. I also told them when I talked to them on the phone that I was in Chapter 11, as they have a record of that conversation. I only vaguely remember it now that they have reminded me of it. I phoned them when I found out about the judgement and asked them what it was about. It came as a real surprise to me. I don't know the date of the judgement yet.. and I know that I had actually filed BK maybe a week or two before I recorded it. I recorded the BK myself at the county recorders office. When I talk to the guy at the county I will bring all this up. I kind of feel encourage again by all this information. I think if I took this to court I could get that judgement vacated. I don't want to get to excited by this but I think there is something here.
I just went through the original filing of my BK papers. The tax collector was named in the papers but for secured taxes. i clearly was not aware of this debt because it would have been included in the BK. I have citys in there and debts for as little as $35 dollars. When I talk to this man, if he ever phones me back, I will ask him to vacate this judgement. It also seems to me, if my memory serves me correct, that going on title for the purpose of getting a loan is a legimate reason not to trigger a tax increase. I will check today with the county on that one. Thanks again for all your help. This website has be a godsend for me, because this new credit ding would have driven me kook-koo. without the advise and encouragement I have received.
I talked to the tax collector from the county and he will not vacate the judgement ...unfortantly because of penalties it has risen substantially. He is calling it a post petition debt and therefore valid because he said that the day the judgement was recorded was the date of the judgement 6/22/92. I don't really know but the debt occured prior to the bk petitionn, namely in Dec of 90 to Feb of 91. He also said they were not noticed ...but they were noticed for secured taxes in the bk petition on that property. I would really like to research the laws here, to see if they are in violation of the bk laws. I will probably have to take this to court any advise or website that one can recommend would really be appreciated. i really want to follow this through.
He right about it being a post-petition judgment. However it is a judgment for a debt discharged in bankruptcy: § 524. Effect of discharge (a) A discharge in a case under this title-- (1) voids any judgment [b}at any time obtained[/b], to the extent that such judgment is a determination of the personal liability of the debtor with respect to any debt discharged under section 727, 944, 1141, 1228, or 1328 of this title, whether or not discharge of such debt is waived; They had notice as they are a listed debtor on your schedule of creditors. Was your bankruptcy discharge obtained prior to the judgement? I think you can win this one, but from your questions I'm not sure you can do it yourself. It may be time to talk to a lawyer.
At this point I would have to get free legal advise as I cannot afford a lawyer...so therefore I will have to try to do this myself. My bk petition was filed on 6/5/92 and their judgement was filed on 6/22/92, 17 days after my bankruptcy petition. it seems to me that their lawsuit was probably in the court system when my bk was filed and should have been stayed, I don't know untill I get all the papers and court files.. What I would like to do is get as much information as I can and write the county attorney and ask him to vacate the judgement. As I understand it a discharge in a BK 11 comes when the reorganization plan is confirmed ( I think that was sometime in 93) That occured long after this judgement. The whole bankruptcy was converted to a 7 several years later in 95 or 96. I do not have all the dates because I do not have all the papers. I truly don't know the law in regards to all this, the BK, judgements etc. I thought this nightmare was behind me and I was greatful to be able to forget about it . But that does not seem to be the case. At this point I have nothing to lose by taking this on and trying to get rid of it. I don't expect it to be easy but I do think it is worth a try.
With regard to whether an item is actually listed in the petition for bankruptcy: In California, whether the debt is listed or not doesn't matter. If it's a dischargeable debt, and wasn't listed, the 9th Circuit (California) has held that the debt is discharged anyway. Also, there is some brand new just decided 9th Circuit case law, re: whether you even have to motion to re-open an old BK case prior to filing a complaint to determine the dischargeability of a debt. There are some circumstances now when you can just go ahead and bring suit in bankruptcy court, even on a case that has been closed (discharged). But as with anything legal, don't take my word for it. Consult a (competent) bk lawyer.
Agreed. You can hit them from two directions on this: 1. The debt is discharged and the judgment is void. You can argue that it was listed - they had notice AND that it doesn't matter whether it was listed or not the debt is discharged. 2. The judgment was illegally obtained (in violation of the bankruptcy stay) and the judgment is voidable. You may wish to file a motion to vacate on these grounds with the court that entered the judgment. Alternatively, you can get a ruling in bankruptcy court on the status of the judgment.
That paticular debt was not listed in the Bk because I was not aware that I owed it, even though it was probably in the court system at the time of my filing. I was never billed or served papers that I was aware of. But the tax collecter was included in my list of debtors so he certainly had notice of the BK . That information about the paticuliar debt not having to be listed is valuable and I will include that in the letter to the county attorney. Hopefully I don't have to reopen the file..I think if I get all the facts straight the county attorney will dismiss this whole thing.
Thanks guys you are so helpful on this. I'm not ready to write the letter yet but you are sure providing me with the ammunition.
