Hawg, I think you're over generalyzing and oversimplifying. Even with all the loopholes, it is very difficult for a consumer to get around the system. If you were to repeatedly go around and abuse credit and not pay your bills, eventually you are going to have items on your report you simply can not dispute, argue, or litigate away. As for mistakes made many years ago, I see no obligation for someone who has suffered 7 years with lousy credit and usury interest rates to go back and pay a defaulted loan for a good which they may no longer even receive any benefit from, simply to have a mean spirited creditor re-age the debt and force you suffer another 7 additional years if not more. If you have decided to take the moral high ground, that is your personal choice, but moral high ground can be costly in more ways than you can imagine. For instance what is a fair interest rate for a loan defaulted 20 years ago? You want to go back and pay interest for 20 years on a loan for an automobile that was repossed or a home that was foreclosed etc. That is mighty "right" of you from an ethical stance, but pretty dumb from a financial stance. Of course you should return your neighbor's lawn mower. But if your neighbor demands $1,000,000 in rental charges over the 8 year should you pay it? I wouldn't, but I guess if you want to take the moral high ground you would. PS. No apology necessary. I think this is a very interesting converation, and I see your point clearly. I think it is more interesting to field a good debate than for everyone to always be 100% in agreement.
Opie's original post: just when i thought i was getting my credit back in order. purchase was 8 years ago, never paid the bill. never was on my credit report and they never came after me. now 8 years later i get a letter from a law office that i owe 1900$. dammit i do not want to pay this, looks like ill be heading to court very soon. what are my options? i feel bad i never paid but this is such messed up timing. im not totally sure when the purchase took place but im pretty sure it was at least 7 years ago. im in indiana eq. 656 now 644 tu. 586 George, did you call Opie a slimeball in the next post before editing? Just curious if that's accurate. Hawg, GaryL, Witchita, I think you're reading a whole lot into the first post that wasn't there. He says he doesn't want to pay, 8 years old, bad timing. Who DOES want to pay bills that you've not anticipated? He never says he WON'T pay -- He never says help me find a way to NOT pay -- He says what are my options. I read that like, what are my options for dealing with this. What difference does it make anyway? What if he had said: I just received an 8 year old bill from a law firm that I don't have the money to pay -- what should I do? what are my options? do I have to respond to the lawfirm, they aren't the OC? What makes Opie's post so different from the hundreds of other similar questions posted each day? This is a credit-repair board. If the charge-off and transfer/assignment were appearing on his reports, he could not improve his standing by paying -- THAT is where the economic impact is. How come that doesn't make your blood boil, Hawg? Sassy
From Opies third post Opie: ive paid off over 7,000$ in collections in the last few years from mistakes in my past. i thought i paid every dime ive ever owed. but i forgot about this one. yes i do want to get out of this debt. I noted the last sentence as he wants to not pay the debt. You have another interpretation Sassy? Seems to me he's pretty explicit in his desire to "get out" of his obligations. Not "what are my options".. not "how do I rectify this in a equitable manner".. not "I have a debt I'd really not have to deal with at this time, how do defer re-payment and protect my credit... "yes, i do want to get out of this debt." Pretty straightforward to me. Wichita
George mistook opie for Bobby. That was what that was about. He realized he was mistaken and removed his post. He didn't even actually call anyone that, he said: And it's SLIME BALL or something to that effect. Gib
thanks Gib!!!!!!!! The ole' slim ball factor eh? LOL ;-) No need to get snippy and pissy there, Witchita, or do I get to be the subject of your next round of character judgments? Sassy
Witchita just go away. Who the hell would be stupid enough to pay a debt that is past the SOL and is no longer owed. This lawyer paid I would guess around $10 or less for the debt and now was $1900. He is a scumbag and there is no reason to pay him and his worthless firm. What about the morality of trying to make a $1890 profit on a debt the attorney knows is beyond the SOL but instead chooses to lie and deceive which btw is against the FDCPA. If I was opie I woulda set this jerkoff up so badly he would be writing me a settlement check.
A few questions for a few people: Pic: is George a "troll" for alledgedly calling Opie a slimeball? I'm not trying to be crass, I've just noticed that whenever someone new here is hard headed you seem to call them a troll. Hawg: Are you against Bankruptcy?
Heh george is a troll woohoo. I think he said that slimeball comment because he thought opie was someone else. When someone comes here and starts telling people to pay SOL debts out of moral responsibilty yes I think they are a troll. I believe in the last 2 months we have all seen an increase in the amount of trolls on this board and on cardreport. Even if he is not a troll this board is not for judgement but to learn credit repair and your rights. Nobody here has the right to accuse someone of wrong even if that person is in the wrong(unless of course it is the wrong advice). If hawg is not a troll then that is all good and fine but he needs to help and not judge. I spent 4 hours last night looking up statutes to help a couple of people who emailed me. I do not want to know why they are in debt because it is not my right to know. Try and go to the msn money board. That place is a joke. Everytime someone goes there for help they are shot down for being deadbeats or losers even though that is the place to go for help with credit repair and debt. I remember a woman with a couple kids who divorced her abusive husband went there for help because her husband ran up the ccs and skipped town leaving her with the kids and the bills and no money. Their response- you should have never left your husband and you should pay the bill out of yes, morality sake. I do not want to see this board ruined like the msn board so if anyone wants to bash others and judge them then go to msn and join their forum.
Ditto humblemarc p.s. in most cultures, "morality" is considered the lowest and most perverted form of true "spirituality"
Sassy... I'm not trying to be pissy or anything like that. In one of your posts you stated something to the effect that you didn't see where Opie was trying to get out of the debt. I merely pointed you to Opie's statement that lead me to beleive he wants out of his obligation, and then I asked you if you had a different interpretation. Picantel... No, I won't go away. And no, I'm not a troll. What I am is just another person engaging in credit repair who has a different opinion than you on this matter. Calling people names and telling them to go away does nothing to support your views in the matter. This is a debate, not a trial. At the core of the debate are issues we normally don't see discussed on this board. Or at least we rarely discuss them in terms of ourselves. Issues like ethics, responsibility, abuse of the system, etc. are normally applied to Creditors, Collection Agencies, Lawyers, etc, but we rarely look in the mirror here and apply them to ourselves. I think we need to realize we are part of the system, not separate from it. And when we (collectively) engage in behaviour that misuses the system, we end up weakening the tools we've been given. Opie's particular circumstance is of no consequence in and of itself. However, the more people try to use the system for unintended purposes, like getting out of debts they are responsible for, the more negative attention credit repairers receive. Right now, we are the little guys, fighting against big bad creditors and abusive collection agencies. Slowly, we are gaining a level of sophistication and experience that is making this group experts in the FCRA and FDCPA. And that is a good thing. But when we are recognized as a cohesive group with considerable power to protect our credit, and lawmakers get enough complaints from people saying we abuse the tools Congress gave us, Congress will take another look at it, and remove some of the tools they gave us. I'm sure most of you recognize there is constant pressure on lawmakers from the credit and collection industry to weaken the FCRA and FDCPA. And when any person abuses the system for purpose not intended, they give ammunition to the bad guys. What is so wrong with saying "Use these tools for credit repair... don't use them to get out of obligations"? Is there something evil in that statement? Something judgemental? Thats really all Hawg and I are saying. Use the tools for their intended purposes. Don't abuse the system. If you do, you could end up helping to ruin it for the rest of us. By the way, in case anyone cares, GaryL and Wichita are one in the same person, just two different terminals. I don't want to give the impression that there are more than just Hawg and I out there beating this drum.
Gary, If you think it's ONLY you and Hawg out there "beating this drum" you have a great deal of reading to do.
My only problem with you and Hawg is you come across pretty high ad mighty. We each determine the level of morality we choose to abide by in our own life. I am sure both you and hawg would look like wretched sinners when compared against Mother Terresa. Most of us have to weigh the financial costs against the cost of moratlity, or "doing the right thing" and make a decision somewhere in the middle. Ie. I will return my neighbors lawn mower, and give him $200 for his trouble. But he is out of luck trying to collect the additioanl $999,800 he claims I owe in fees, and if he puts it on my credit, I will abuse the system to get it off. This is what Opie has done, He has paid old charge-offs, and just when he thought he was done this thing pops up. He can't afford it right now, and wants to know if he can do anything to delay, or get out of it. That is his choice. He has a degree of morality, just not the degree you are advocating. A lot of peple shoplifted at one point in their childhood or adolescence. Ie, stole a candy bar from the local convenience store and got away with it. Should they go back 20 or 30 years later and make restitution? Will it make a difference, to the store, or the grand scheme of things. Will it clear a guilty conscience. I do not know, but most people do not have time for such nonsense.
Woa Sas, I have never seen you speak like that before, everyone here needs to not let others get to them, the debates are getting the best of everyone, Sas your info is too important to waste your breath w/stuff like this. BTW Sas this is not a shot at you I was just kind of shocked cause I really have never seen you talk like that. You have too much helpful and important info to let this consume your time.
Hawg, You've got a lot to learn about collection agencies and their tricks. hmongster ================== | Right hmongster Piggy has a lot to learn. Sorry Hawg about the pun couldn't resist having a little fun with it LOL. LB 59
Butch is right on the money here. There are MANY here who feel paying one's bills rather than trying to get out of one's legitimate obligations is the way to go. The two posters of the DemPooches username are among them. PERIOD. We're in business and if the bills aren't paid by our customers we go out of business. Are we ticked that for over 2 years we've been sitting on a judgment for a guy we bent over backward for and did so much comp work for it would make you sick? You bet we're ticked! On another front, we attempt calling, we send a certified letter and we finally have the magistrate swear out a warrant for bad checks. Do we care when the "customer" shows up 6 months later telling us how he got taken to jail for the check the night before when all he was doing was speeding? No, we don't care in the least! Maybe he won't ignore us next time. We tried to work with him. We always try to work with our customers. If they have a problem we bend over backward to accommodate them. We are understanding and sympathetic and we wait and we wait and we wait. But we are aggressive about eventually separating them from the money WE HAVE EARNED! It is only fair! Others expect their paychecks from their bosses. We expect our paychecks from our customers. And we have STRONG feelings about it. THIS IS THE POSITION WE ARE COMING FROM! All that being said, I refuse to come to this board and analyze all of the ins and outs of each poster's situation ad nauseum to decide whether: 1.They have an issue that is legitimate in my eyes 2.They are a person down on their luck (for whatever reason) and are doing the best they can with what they have to work with 3. They're a deadbeat trying to skip out on their bills 4. They're learning the lessons that go along with irresponsibility. 5. They're any combination of the above or none of the above. I don't have time to do all of that analysis and make sure I haven't made a mistake. I DON'T KNOW THE PEOPLE POSTING HERE! None of us do. I will evaluate a post and simply decide if I am going to participate or not. I AM NOT CONDONING financial irresponsibility when I don't jump in and tell every poster who I think MAY be trying to get out of legitimate obligations that his/her behavior is morally wrong. They don't need ME to do that! I'm probably not going to help them, but I'm not going to lecture to them either. If they're doing wrong, LIFE IS GOING TO TEACH THEM THAT LESSON. They may get out of this particular obligation, but they really haven't learned anything and their lives are not moving forward in a positive way. Their bad choices are going to come back to haunt them over and over again. They'll clean it up just to have something re-inserted. They'll get out of a credit card debt and bemoan the fact that the particular company won't ever give them a card again. And there'll be countless other little reminders that will take care of letting them know over and over again they "done wrong." My role is to help when I can help and choose to and to step back when I can't help or choose not to. I cannot police everything everyone is going to do with the information they are provided here. I would go crazy trying to and frankly this would not be the kind of place I'd want to post. NONE OF US would ever measure up to what everyone else thinks is right. I guarantee it. And finally, I personally believe providing helpful recommendations with the disclaimer "now I believe in paying one's obligations so the advice I give you comes from that perspective" is a lot more conducive to a beneficial exchange than is a statement simply accusing the poster. Call me crazy. I will continue to post or not post as I deem appropriate and will thank others not to ascribe to me motives or positions which I have not espoused. WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER, REMEMBER? DemPooches
oh dear, tnobles, I hope you didn't read that as I was calling someone a slim(e) ball. In a response, Opie had said that George called him the same at the beginning of the thread, however George's thread was edited. I had asked George if that was accurate, that he'd called Opie a slim(e) ball. Didn't seem like George to me. Gib was answering that question for me. The slim(e) ball reference actually comes from another thread that pbm closed for trolling. My apologies for using the word pissy as well. For the record Hawg and Wichita, I don't disagree with what you are saying, I only try to not inflict my personal feelings/beliefs on others. It's not as cut and dry as, did I incur this bill and am I responsible for paying it, in my mind. I don't know Opie from adam, nor eve for that matter -- just felt like he was being challenged specifically for something that is posted a hundred or so times a day without the same level of microscoping of words and intent. There's no sign hanging on the door for morality screening and I do truly feel that it's not my place to decide ethical questions for another. I didn't read his posts as yes I'm paying or no I won't pay as you both did in regards to whether he was trying to get out of paying an obligation. Thanks for keeping me in check, tnobles! Sassy
Regarding Sears, I read the same article in the Wall St Journal and although Sears does receive 60% of its operating revenues from its cc business, the problems that it's having are due to the SEARS GoLDCARD. According to the Sears spokesperson, the company didn't realize all the risks associated w/ issuing the gold card including the possiblity that so many people could default especially those that used the BT checks. Reading that makes me think that they should have researchred their market better before jumping in to issue this product. There were also some quotes about the cc division being mismanaged and that the head of it was let go for LYING about the profitability of the division. As far as the "morals debate," my two cents is that yes, you should pay your bills. BUT it is not always as simple as that for reasons which have been gone into on this board numerous times. As far as a LEGAL obligation if the SOL is 7 years then after 7 years the right to collect is past. No one needs to feel guilty operating within the law here. They are not being deceitful. Presumably, they have suffered for 7 years and that's the price that our society has said must be paid for a delinquent financial obligation. And regardless of someone's true motive if they can have a debt extinguished due to the creditor not following the law prior to the SOL expiring that is their right to pursue too. If proper records are kept and the law is followed then there shouldn't be any problem w/ collection for the creditor. P.S. It doesn't seem to me that most collectors/creditors and their partners CRAs are too concerned w/ morals. Bonuses/corp profits are the name of the game for them. They have lobbied to weaken the consumer laws including BK and they are willing to use any trick that they can to squeeze money from the individual including outright lying.
