3 Deletes!!

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by lisajt66, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. lisajt66

    lisajt66 Member

    Just an update-

    #1 Renaissance Bank -Only showed up on TU-also sent 2 requests for validation, no reponse but they verified with TU. I did an online dispute with TU and poof!! GONE!!

    #2-Collectron of Atlanta- requested validation, they responded with bogus info they say was provided by the OC. I sent an angry 2nd letter with threat of ITS because of their tampered/forged documents(not my signature),knowledge they were not licensed nor bonded to collect in my state and violation of BK Ch7 (OC was included). No response but deleted!!

    #3-AFNI-After 2 requests for validation with no response from them, yet they verified with the CRA's both times, I filed an online dispute with the BBB and rec'd notice today they agreed to delete!! This was the hardest CA to get to delete.

    Onward to #4...
    __________________
     
  2. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    On #2,
    What type of debt was the original account?
    What type of tampered OC document did they provide?
    Did they claim this was obtained directly from the OC?
    Was this a debt bought by Collectron, or assigned to them by the OC?

    If the signature was not yours, where do you believe the forgery/tampering was performed, and what were its characteristics?:
    1) generic unreadable squiggle, possibly with attempt to obfuscate thru copying,
    2) attempt to write your name but not in your hand,
    3) attempt to manually copy your signature possibly from some other document, or
    4) attempt to lift and transfer your signature, possibly by Photoshop or similar, from another source such as your letter?
     
  3. lisajt66

    lisajt66 Member

    The original debt was from a rental company (condo) that I assume was assigned from the OC. I requested dv, they responded with a copy of a lease dated 06/30/00 for a term beginning 07/08/00 and ending 07/31/01.
    They provided an "account disposition" from the OC with a lease start date of 09/01/04, a move in date of 08/01/02, a lease end date of 08/31/05 and a move out date of 12/12/05.
    I had only signed one lease and never signed another one.I moved in 11/05 and sent them a letter with 30 day notice as required. The $ was supposedly for repairs, cleaning, rent for not notifying them etc.
    I sent them a letter stating that they were not licensed nor bonded in my state (CT), that their information was incorrect, and tampered with and/or forged and that they were in violation of the BK code.
    I did sign a lease in 2000 for one year and still have the my copy. The copy of the lease they sent me did not match mine from 2000. My signature looked like it had been cut and pasted and the entire document was in a different format. At that time there was a different leasing company and the copy of the 2000 lease they sent had the signature of the last property manager who was not even there in 2000.
     
  4. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    So essentially, you had a one year lease, that expired, was not renewed, so it reverted to a month to month. Forging a lease is a bit of risk for just collecting "repairs, cleaning, rent". Their forged lease didn't even match up to a year multiple of the end of the original lease. It looks like they were now claiming rent to the end of the forged lease, as opposed to the initial claim of a month rent for failure to notify 30 days in advance. Were they claiming rent other than 1 more month?

    It looks like it points to the final manager, or someone at the OC knowing what "should have" been on it at that time, if there had been a lease, particularly since they would have had to have access to both a copy of the original signed lease, and the later lease form from which to produce the forgery.


    Did the forged signature look so close in size and detail to the signature on your original lease that it would be clear that it was copied by, say, scanner and computer, in order to produce the forged second lease document?

    For example, if you held the two side by side, would the letter positions, and degree to which loops were filled, and letters were sloped, exactly match the earlier lease (other than scaling or orientation), indicating that it was a photographic or scanned transfer from the signature on the first lease?

    If you take definable points in each signature (t-crosses, tops of stick letters or loops, etc), and show that the distance between a pair of points in one matches the same distance between the same pair of points in the other, within a measurement tolerance, and that this is true of any of a number of such points, you can show that one must have been a copy of the other, to whatever level of statistical certainty you want. Alternatively, if you just scan them both in, and adjust the scale of one to match the size of the other, you can lay one on top of the other to show a match.

    The exact matching of the signatures is sufficient to show that the document is a forgery.

    Since the details of the forged document were made to match the details of when you moved out, it implies that the forgery must have been made after you had moved out, when those details were known. It may even have been made directly in response to your request for validation.

    If the manager's signature can be authenticated, such as by showing that it is present in the original forgery, as well as on other similar leases for other tenants at about the same time, then it would imply that he was involved in the creation of the forgery. More likely, if you demanded that the original be produced in response to, say, discovery, it is likely that no such original will be found if the forgery was by Photoshop or similar, or if found, the original might show evidence that your signature was traced from the legitimate lease.


    It is not uncommon for tenants to be charged fraudulently for cleaning, repairs, and rent on moving out. It is also not uncommon for such debts to be sold off to CAs, when ex-tenants refuse to pay. What is less common is for forged documents to be created to "support" the allegation. If this has occurred in this case, the perpetrator may have done it in other cases, as they are clearly at least proficient enough at the process to use the tools they used here.

    If the manager, as opposed to an owner of the rental business who might directly benefit, was involved in the creation of a forged document in order to collect on an already suspect debt (you did in fact give written notice), what motive would he have to commit a crime in order to collect money for his employer? Where is his interest in this, or are there likely to be other improper charges to other former tenants? Is he likely to have committed a crime to support collection of debts from tenants, but still been totally honest in remitting receipts to the owner? Or perhaps, is this to cover other improprieties in his handling of receipts?


    Are you still living in the same state?

    Does the property management company, or the CA, have any similar complaints against it?

    Have you checked with the local DA's consumer fraud unit, which is probably where any such similar complaints of forgery would end up?

    Forgery is a crime. It is also identity theft. If sent thru the mails, it could also be mail fraud. If the CA was aware of the forgery, then their use of the forged document to attempt to collect the alleged debt would also be several FDCPA violations. Removal of the account from your credit reports does not undo the crime.
     
  5. ontrack

    ontrack Well-Known Member

    Based on your own knowledge, the OC (or their agent) committed at least four separate fraudulent acts:
    1) They falsely claimed you had not provided 30 days notice, and they were due more rent money. This falsification also puts in doubt the legitimacy of the other claims for cleaning costs and repairs.
    2) They knowingly fabricated a document in their records to support what they claimed you owed.
    3) They forged your signature on that document, transferred from an earlier legitimate document.
    4) They sent a copy of that forged fraudulent document to you (thru the U.S. Mail) as alleged "validation" in response to your FDCPA request.

    The OC would have been in a better position if they had not proceeded to falsify their documents, including manufacturing a new lease with your forged signature. They might even have gotten away with a simple "itemized statement" prepared by the current manager, with no claim to have a new lease. The fact that you can prove they did in fact forge the lease would undermine the credibility of any other documents they might produce in court.

    The problem is, what will likely become of this "debt" in the future, especially since there are a number of years left on the SOL for the alleged written contract?

    You were lucky, as your defense depends on you having the original lease, and their incompetence in producing the falsified documents that used your signature from that lease. If you hadn't had a copy of your original lease document, or they had been more competent in what they fabricated, you might have had more difficulties. You got it off your reports, since apparently Collectron wanted no part of it. You will, of course, want to keep this whole collection of correspondence in your permanent records, in case it is sold off to some other CA, in order to CYA.

    You might want to nail down the illegitimacy of the debt now, while you can, based on their falsification, to ensure it does not cause you any problems in the future. One way might be to file a complaint about the attempt at fraudulent collection, and the forgery used in that attempt, since forging your signature is by definition also an act of id theft. You might file complaints with any or all of: your local DA, in whose jurisdiction the rental property was located, your state AG, since this involves fraudulent collection across state borders and CT requires licensing, and the FTC, since the fraudulent documentation was provided in response to your request for validation, in violation of FDCPA. (This may be a case where FDCPA liability applies to the OC as well, since it appears they, or their agent/employee, the manager, produced the fraudulent response used in validation. Thus the OC itself might find itself liable under the FDCPA prohibition against false and deceptive collection and reporting.)

    Include in your complaints the full details of your timely 30 day notice, the reported account, the dispute with proof of delivery, and the resulting "validation", along with copies of the documents that show the act of forgery and from where the signature was obtained, proving it was in fact a forgery. Prepare and include a signed "fraud affidavit" regarding the forged document. Send it CRRR, and keep a copy of each filed complaint. Get a copy of the report from the agency, to use as an id theft report for CRA blocking purposes.


    The purpose is to be prepared should this debt resurface in the hands of a new CA, or be placed on your reports again, possibly at a time when you cannot afford the full dispute/validation/litigation cycle such as if you were closing on a mortgage. Because of the overlap with id fraud due to the forgery, which places the CRA response within the requirements of FCRA with respect to fraudulent accounts, copies of your complaint documentation should be helpful in obtaining quick removal and blocking thru the CRAs, as well as in any action you might need to take against any future CA.

    Your claim that this is fraudulent is stronger when you have proceeded to file complaints with law enforcement or regulatory authorities, and when you have done this promptly around the time when the fraud was originally discovered, regardless of what other action you or those authorities may later decide to take.
     
  6. lisajt66

    lisajt66 Member

    Ontrack...

    It amazes me how quick and thorough you are with your answers and responses!!

    I have read (and reread) both of your posts and you have given me a lot to digest. I will reply when I look into all you have mentioned.

    Thank you again for ALL of your knowledge!

    Lisa
     

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