I disputed an account with American Agencies for an old Pac Bell Debt. When they sent the itemized listing, it included two of the same months that were paid off with Calvary Portfolio. I called AT&T and talked to about a dozen people. Since the account was sold to American Agencies almost four years ago they have no specifics on the account beside account number and person who the account was billed to. They said all records are turned over to American Agencies when debt is sold. So....when the CA-American Agencies are DV'd, I thought they had to get the ORIGINAL records from the ORIGINAL CREDITOR in the past 30 days. If Pac Bell/AT&T does not have them anymore, is it acceptable for American AGencies just to send out copies of what they purchased four years ago?
They are only required to notify you of the original creditor, name, address, the balance. If they have bills they can send those to you, and no they do not have to be from the past 30 days.
Okay maybe this is a silly question then but....so then how does the original creditor, name, addres, and balance in any way validate a debt? It's just their word against your's.
§ 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g] (a) Within five days after the initial communication with a consumer in connection with the collection of any debt, a debt collector shall, unless the following information is contained in the initial communication or the consumer has paid the debt, send the consumer a written notice containing -- (1) the amount of the debt; (2) the name of the creditor to whom the debt is owed; (3) a statement that unless the consumer, within thirty days after receipt of the notice, disputes the validity of the debt, or any portion thereof, the debt will be assumed to be valid by the debt collector; (4) a statement that if the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, the debt collector will obtain verification of the debt or a copy of a judgment against the consumer and a copy of such verification or judgment will be mailed to the consumer by the debt collector; and (5) a statement that, upon the consumer's written request within the thirty-day period, the debt collector will provide the consumer with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor. (b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector. (c) The failure of a consumer to dispute the validity of a debt under this section may not be construed by any court as an admission of liability by the consumer.
"Okay maybe this is a silly question then but....so then how does the original creditor, name, address, and balance in any way validate a debt? It's just their word against your's." Clearly it doesn't. FDCPA requires that the debt collector obtain such validation (from the original creditor), and send it to the consumer. FDCPA: "(b) If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period described in subsection (a) that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt, or any disputed portion thereof, until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment, or the name and address of the original creditor, and a copy of such verification or judgment, or name and address of the original creditor, is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector. " In your case, even records from the OC are not sufficient to accurately determine the correct amount owed, if you made payments to an earlier CA (Cavalry), and the records of the OC, or the current CA, don't reflect these payments. So, having made payments to Cavalry, that apparently have "disappeared", and based on the records of both American Agencies, and Cavalry, what would you expect to accomplish by making additional payments on this debt? You also raised the legitimate legal issue of how a debt collector, especially when purchasing debts with original records from the original creditor, would introduce those records as business records to show evidence of the debt, if they were: 1) not the debt collector's business records, since they were not created in the course of THEIR business; 2) the CA's employees cannot attest to the manner and accuracy of their keeping; 3) OC employees might also no longer be able to attest to the same, as the records were no longer under the control of the OC. What is the original date of delinquency? When was your last payment made on the debt? What is SOL for this type of debt in your state?
Thanks for posting this. I'm dealing with two accounts from Afni, one for me one for my husband. We've been provided with the name and address of the original creditor which is a cable company. But that doesn't show/prove anything. The problem is that my husband never had service with them. I did but I paid my final bill after the account was closed and have a copy of my canceled check to prove it. They've tried telling me that mine is for a different account number six months after we had moved to another city. So how can I get it through their thick skulls that these are both bogus accounts? I mean seriously, I think someone just made them up! It's frustrating as heck! I've sent a dispute letter on both accounts and am waiting for a response. Thanks for any advice you may have.
A cancelled check only shows a payment was made on whatever account number you wrote down, it proves nothing more than that. You'll have to wait for proper validation if you have nothing else to show them, i.e. last bill with copy of cancelled check.
"They've tried telling me that mine is for a different account number six months after we had moved to another city. So how can I get it through their thick skulls that these are both bogus accounts? I mean seriously, I think someone just made them up! " Maybe they did. At this point, what have they put in writing, and what are they just claiming on the phone?
I never received a final bill from them. What I got was from an internal collections (I believe) threatening to send the account to collections and report it if the final balance wasn't paid. I sent a copy of that letter along with the canceled check that I mailed out in response to it and an explanation of everything (including a statement that I had not had service with this company since) as my proof. Their response (by phone) was that it was a different account number they were trying to collect on. Funny though...the account number they gave was in a completely different format, different length, dashing, spacing, etc from the account number I had with this company. Makes me wonder if they really did just make it up.
You have proof you paid the account that was yours. The internal collection letter, and the check that paid against it, are proof of payment of the account referenced. Whatever other account they are collecting on is clearly NOT yours, and NOT owed by you.
Turns out that it is coming from the OC. At least an account with my maiden name is coming up in their system but not the account number that was given to me by the CA. I called this afternoon figuring I'd try yet again to get somewhere with the OC. The rep was able to tell me that he could not find the account number I gave him but an account was charged off in the amount the CA is reporting under a name that matches my maiden name. Whether it's actually me or not who knows. I asked him for more info....what address the service was for, when, etc and he said they didn't have that info any more because it went to the CA. I said "Well, they tell me that you're the ones verifiying that I owe you money. How are you doing that if you don't have any records?" Dead silence. He muttered something about connecting me to the business office and somehow I magically got disconnected. I'll wait until the end of the month for the CA to respond but then I think I'm just going to start bugging the OC's corporate headquarters to get some information and get it cleared up. I want it off my credit report like yesterday! Thanks for your help.
Did you have an account with the OC in your maiden name? If so, was it closed less than 7.5 years ago? If it is an old account closed (whether delinquent or not) more than 7.5 years ago, it is not legally reportable, and you might also be past SOL in your state. Keep in mind that this might also be an erroneous "skip-trace" on someone with the same name as your maiden name, that AA matched up to your current credit file, either thru the CRAs, or thru other databases, even though you may no longer have been using that name at the time the account was opened. It might be your account, it might or might not be owed, or it might not be your account at all, either thru AA's sloppy skip-trace, or thru id theft. In particular, there is a lot of old phone debt floating around, that is being bought cheaply, and ending up in the hands of JDBs like AA and others, that they appear to be trying to collect on as cheaply as possible. Afni bought 2 million old GTE accounts recently from Verizon, and they have been dunning lots of the wrong people, apparently based only on name matches. In addition, telephone account fraud, whether landline or cell phone, is one of the most common id theft forms, for several reasons: 1) Most phone companies appear to check little beyond whether whatever id information the new account applicant provides matches credit report identity info; 2) Many accounts are opened either over the phone or internet so thieves feel safe committing fraud when little provable id has been provided; 3) It is common for new accounts to be at new addresses not already on a consumer's credit report, as would normally happen after moving; 4) The incremental cost to the bottom line for the fraud is low ("profit margin" is high), compared to fraud involving merchandise sale, the service can be cut off at any moment, and the erroneous collection damages are born by the id theft victim, so it is not in the financial interests of telecom companies to spend excessively up front on fraud avoidance.
