Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose Yeah, I noticed that also. I checked this out when I posted about a car loan - though I noticed when I did a search on car loans I saw his postings so I expected his comments. He did have one post on someone asking about a mortgage - of course his response was basically the same uplifing message he provides to all!
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose "And has anyone noticed of all 51 posts, they have only been responses to car threads. This guy has an agenda, what I am not sure of. A used car dealer maybe, since he keeps spouting off about 'if you can't pay cash you can't afford it'?????" Yeah, I noticed that too. Either he's got an agenda or he lives in some other United States of America where it's always the car dealer who's got the upper hand. Nick makes it sounds like it's actually close to impossible to buy a car at a good price right now. I just fail to believe that. PawMix
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose I speak the truth both from personal experience & experiences from other real people (friends, neighbors, co-workers). Everyone agrees with me, in contrast to people on credit.net., and they have their own horror stories to tell. Also, the media in NYC has done reports on some of the exact same scams that I have spoken about here. So it isn't just a 'personal agenda'. In todays world, idealistic & optimistic thinking will get you know where. I HAVE ALSO NEVER SAID that you cannot pay cash, cannot finance thru your own credit union etc.... I HAVE SAID that if you do the above, then you will generally not get any type of discount off of the sticker MSRP, or marked up kelly blue book retail value. Also, if your credit score is below the mid 600's, then the standard rate is usually 14 - 17% on a used car.
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose I speak the truth both from personal experience & experiences from other real people (friends, neighbors, co-workers). Everyone agrees with me, in contrast to people on credit.net., and they have their own horror stories to tell. Also, the media in NYC has done reports on some of the exact same scams that I have spoken about here. So it isn't just a 'personal agenda'. In todays world, idealistic & optimistic thinking will get you know where. I HAVE ALSO NEVER SAID that you cannot pay cash, cannot finance thru your own credit union etc.... I HAVE SAID that if you do the above, then you will generally not get any type of discount off of the sticker MSRP, or marked up kelly blue book retail value. Also, if your credit score is below the mid 600's, then the standard rate is usually 14 - 17% on a used car.
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose BrettS, this is an informative piece about permissible purpose and auto dealerships. It says permission must be in writing. http://www.manningleaver.com/legalease articles/obtaining_consumer_credit_report.htm Chipper! What do you think of the '04 Corolla S w/spoiler & moonroof? Any idea what I could expect to pay for one? _________________________________________________
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose Thanks Lyttlemac, was lookin all over for that. February 11, 1998 Karen Coffey, Chief Counsel Texas Automobile Dealers Assn. 1108 Lavaca -- P. O. Box 1028 Austin, Texas 78767-1028 Re: Section 604 of the Fair Credit Reporting Act Dear Ms. Coffey: This responds to your letter dated August 29, 1997, asking the views of the Commission staff on a number of issues concerning application of the amended Fair Credit Reporting Act ("FCRA"), including (1) the propriety of an auto dealership obtaining a consumer report from a consumer reporting agency ("CRA") on an individual who visits the showroom, (2) the disclosure required to be provided to a job applicant or current employee before a consumer report may be obtained by the employer, and (3) the items required to be provided to the consumer before adverse action may be taken by the employer based on the report. 1. Section 604(a)(3)(F) permits CRAs to provide consumer reports to any party who has a "legitimate business need for the information in connection with a business transaction that is initiated by the consumer." You ask whether this provision allows a dealer to obtain a consumer report on a person who "comes to an automobile dealership and requests information" from a salesman about one or more automobiles. In our view it does not, because a request for general information about products and prices offered does not involve a business transaction initiated by the consumer. More generally, you ask "when is the beginning of a business transaction" initiated by the consumer? In responding to this question, it is important to note that Section 604(a)(3)(F) limits this "business need" permissible purpose to transactions (i) that are "initiated" by the consumer and (ii) where the seller has a "legitimate business need" for the information. The staff's view is that an automobile dealer may obtain a report only in those circumstances in which the consumer clearly understands that he or she is initiating the purchase or lease of a vehicle and the seller has a legitimate business need for the consumer report information in order to complete the transaction. For example, a consumer who asks a dealer questions about prices and financing is not necessarily indicating an intent to purchase or lease a vehicle from that particular dealer. Nor does the dealer have a "legitimate" business need for a consumer report in this situation. The consumer may simply be comparison shopping. In such a situation, the dealer must obtain written permission from the consumer before obtaining a consumer report. If the dealer would like to see a consumer's credit report before answering general questions about the availability of financing, this must be explained to the consumer and written permission must be obtained. In the same way, a request to "test drive" a vehicle does not indicate an intent to initiate the purchase or lease of the vehicle. Accordingly, if a consumer asks to test drive a vehicle, the dealer must obtain written permission from the consumer before obtaining a report. Only in those circumstances where it is clear both to the consumer and to the dealer that the consumer is actually initiating the purchase or lease of a specific vehicle and, in addition, the dealer has a legitimate business need for consumer report information may the dealer obtain a report without written permission. In this regard, we note that obtaining information for negotiation purposes does not constitute a "legitimate" business need. The dealer must have a specific need for the information directly related to the completion of the transaction. For example, a dealer may obtain a report, if one is necessary, in order to arrange financing requested by the consumer.(1) The dealer may also obtain a report to check a consumer's creditworthiness when the consumer presents a personal check to pay for the vehicle. By contrast, a permissible purpose would not arise if a consumer intends to pay by cash. 2. Section 604(b)(2)(A) requires consumer report users, before procuring a report for employment purposes, to make a written disclosure to the consumer "in a document that consists solely of the disclosure" that a consumer report may be obtained for employment purposes. You ask whether a party that has secured an employee's authorization for the report in an employment application must also make the disclosure in a separate document. The answer is yes, because Section 604(b)(2)(A) specifically states that the document containing the required disclosure may not include other items. You also ask what information may appear on the document and if "the FTC is suggesting that the document be of a certain size." It is our view that Congress intended that the disclosure not be encumbered with extraneous information. However, some additional information, such as a brief description of the nature of the consumer reports covered by the disclosure, may be included if the information does not confuse the consumer or detract from the mandated disclosure. We suggest no size requirement for the disclosure; a document that meets the "clear and conspicuous" standard set by the FCRA will be acceptable. 3. Finally, you ask two questions relating to Section 604(b)(3), which requires an employer "before taking any adverse action" based on a consumer report, to provide the consumer with a copy of the report and the summary of consumer FCRA rights prescribed by the Commission. First, you ask if a CRA is responsible for sending the required summary to employers. The answer is yes, because Section 604(b)(1)(B) imposes this duty on CRAs that provide reports for employment purposes. Second, you ask if there is any specific amount of time that must elapse from the time the required items are provided to the consumer and the employer's adverse employment action. The law is silent as to how long the employer must wait after making the Section 604(b)(3) pre-adverse action disclosure before actually taking adverse action; it states only that the specified items be provided before the adverse action is taken. Employers may wish to consult with their counsel in order to develop procedures that are appropriate, keeping in mind the clear purpose of the provision to allow consumers to discuss the report with employers before adverse action is taken. The opinions set forth in this informal staff letter are not binding on the Commission. Yours truly, David Medine
Re: Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose Those S series are really cool. I just let a 2003 with stick go for $15,700. That's not much over invoice, so when I find out what the '04 goes for, I will let you know!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose Here are my questions... 1. Is it legal to give someone verbal permission to pull my report or do I need to have signed something? I'm thinking that it is legal because I recently applied for a mortgage completely over the phone and that company did pull my credit report. 2. If it is legal to give verbal permission what documentation or proof do they need that I gave them permission? Is just saying that they needed my SS number to do the pull and since I must have given them that number I gave them permission legal or is there something more that they must do? 3. I'm very seriously considering taking this to court. If I do go ahead with this do you think I'll stand a chance? Like I said, I know with absolute certainty that I never signed anything, so they won't be able to produce my signature. All they have is that I must have given them my SS number. Thanks much, Brett ================= More of Nicks B.S. Whether it is permissible or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that buying a car (new or used) and financing go hand in hand. If you refuse to let the dealer check your credit & refuse to fill out their credit application prior to test drive, then you probably won't even be able to test the car or even get any service. These days you must be prequalfied before any negotiations even begin, even if you claim you have your financing. You can refuse to let a dealer check you credit and come in with your own financing or pay cash, but then you will be paying full MSRP sticker + options + fees. THE END ** *** ** LB 59 """""""""```~~~```'"""""""""
Re: Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose Here are my questions... 1. Is it legal to give someone verbal permission to pull my report or do I need to have signed something? I'm thinking that it is legal because I recently applied for a mortgage completely over the phone and that company did pull my credit report. 2. If it is legal to give verbal permission what documentation or proof do they need that I gave them permission? Is just saying that they needed my SS number to do the pull and since I must have given them that number I gave them permission legal or is there something more that they must do? 3. I'm very seriously considering taking this to court. If I do go ahead with this do you think I'll stand a chance? Like I said, I know with absolute certainty that I never signed anything, so they won't be able to produce my signature. All they have is that I must have given them my SS number. Thanks much, Brett ================= More of Nicks B.S. Whether it is permissible or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that buying a car (new or used) and financing go hand in hand. If you refuse to let the dealer check your credit & refuse to fill out their credit application prior to test drive, then you probably won't even be able to test the car or even get any service. These days you must be prequalfied before any negotiations even begin, even if you claim you have your financing. You can refuse to let a dealer check you credit and come in with your own financing or pay cash, but then you will be paying full MSRP sticker + options + fees. THE END ** *** ** LB 59 """""""""```~~~```'"""""""""
The nonsence report: The nonsence report: I speak the truth both from personal experience & experiences from other real people (friends, neighbors, co-workers). Everyone agrees with me, in contrast to people on credit.net., and they have their own horror stories to tell. Also, the media in NYC has done reports on some of the exact same scams that I have spoken about here. So it isn't just a 'personal agenda'. In todays world, idealistic & optimistic thinking will get you know where. I HAVE ALSO NEVER SAID that you cannot pay cash, cannot finance thru your own credit union etc.... I HAVE SAID that if you do the above, then you will generally not get any type of discount off of the sticker MSRP, or marked up kelly blue book retail value. Also, if your credit score is below the mid 600's, then the standard rate is usually 14 - 17% on a used car. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Nickel THE END ** *** ** LB 59 """""""""```~~~```'"""""""""
The nonsence report: Well ... I went to a dealer today. Test drove a Grand Prix prior to any paper work. When I got back we started talking numbers, THAT'S when they pulled 2 reports, EQ & TU, WITHOUT written permission. In fact I NEVER did sign anything. Maybe I should buy the car, sue them for 2 grand and use that to make my first 5-6 pmts. LOL HERE'S MY QUESTION -> Why is there such a price difference between Blue Book and N.A.D.A.? hmmm? ???
Re: The nonsence report: NO!!!! TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE AND USE "THAT $2,000 FOR PAYMENTS AT ANOTHER DEALER... "I have $2,000 for a down payment from the last dealer that HAD NO PP...you are not going to pull any credit report with-out WRITTEN PERMISSION...are you???"
Re: The nonsence report: Basic explanation - KBB is retail pricing, sellers like to use that to get the highest price possible. NADA is a wholesale pricing guide. Dealers like to use that to lowball you on the trade in.
Re: The nonsence report: Originally posted by Butch HERE'S MY QUESTION Why is there such a price difference between Blue Book and N.A.D.A.? hmmm? ================ What do you mean? Could you give an example? What kind of a price difference? THE END ** *** ** LB 59
Re: The nonsence report: In response to the different colored 'books'.... Originally: The 'Blue Book' was typically the lenders guide- more of a maximum loan value' on the vehicle'. This is typically the highest value you will find. The 'Yellow Book', or original 'NADA" book, is a guide to retail pricing. While it now covers a wholesale number (also) as well, this is not a true wholesale number as the dealer will see it. This is the 'middle value' The 'Black Book', what every sales manager and dealer principal carries in his pocket for appraisals, is what is actually used to determine the 'ACV' Actual Cash Value of yout trade. It is a weeky publication based entirely on auction runs in the immidiate area (i.e. BWI or Manhiem in the DelMarVa area). This is the lowest value...or wholesale value. The number you are given for your trade by the salesman, and even written on the Buyers Order and Contract, is NOT (99% of the time) the ACV of your vehicle....it is what they are 'showing' you for your vehicle. The ACV will vary little, if at all, between dealerships unless the dealer you are working with has a wholesaler or other interested in the vehicle. I have seen ACV's as small as $1 and the person think they are getting $3500..it depends on the deal and how much they loved their trade. The best thing to do is simply tell the saleperson that you would like to deal wholesale to wholesale, ACV to ACV. Ask them to give you a flat price on what you are looking to buy and the ACV of your trade. Then deal from there. The worst thing to do is act like the salesperson is trying to 'rip you off'.... there is a lot to a deal including the service you are going to or not going to get afterwards. For every crappy/dishonest salesperson I have ever met I have met at least 3 good ones. And no good dealership would let someone of that caliber work for them. Shop around and listen to your insticts... I have other posts on this topic if you do a search on my username... My family has 19 new and used car dealerships and I have been around the car business for 30 years. I have pretty much seen it all when it comes to car deals, so if you have any questions, fire away.... Supershawn
That's a load of crap. The Federal trade Commission, in the Coffey Letter, answered the poster's question 9 years ago: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION WASHINGTON, D.C. 20580 David Medine Associate Director Division of Credit Practices Direct Dial: 202-326-3224 Fax : 202-326-2558 E-mail: dmedine@ftc.gov February 11, 1998 Karen Coffey, Chief Counsel Texas Automobile Dealers Assn. 1108 Lavaca -- P. O. Box 1028 Austin, Texas 78767-1028 Re: Section 604 of the Fair Credit Reporting Act Dear Ms. Coffey: This responds to your letter dated August 29, 1997, asking the views of the Commission staff on a number of issues concerning application of the amended Fair Credit Reporting Act ("FCRA"), including (1) the propriety of an auto dealership obtaining a consumer report from a consumer reporting agency ("CRA") on an individual who visits the showroom, (2) the disclosure required to be provided to a job applicant or current employee before a consumer report may be obtained by the employer, and (3) the items required to be provided to the consumer before adverse action may be taken by the employer based on the report. 1. Section 604(a)(3)(F) permits CRAs to provide consumer reports to any party who has a "legitimate business need for the information in connection with a business transaction that is initiated by the consumer." You ask whether this provision allows a dealer to obtain a consumer report on a person who "comes to an automobile dealership and requests information" from a salesman about one or more automobiles. In our view it does not, because a request for general information about products and prices offered does not involve a business transaction initiated by the consumer. More generally, you ask "when is the beginning of a business transaction" initiated by the consumer? In responding to this question, it is important to note that Section 604(a)(3)(F) limits this "business need" permissible purpose to transactions (i) that are "initiated" by the consumer and (ii) where the seller has a "legitimate business need" for the information. The staff's view is that an automobile dealer may obtain a report only in those circumstances in which the consumer clearly understands that he or she is initiating the purchase or lease of a vehicle and the seller has a legitimate business need for the consumer report information in order to complete the transaction. For example, a consumer who asks a dealer questions about prices and financing is not necessarily indicating an intent to purchase or lease a vehicle from that particular dealer. Nor does the dealer have a "legitimate" business need for a consumer report in this situation. The consumer may simply be comparison shopping. In such a situation, the dealer must obtain written permission from the consumer before obtaining a consumer report. If the dealer would like to see a consumer's credit report before answering general questions about the availability of financing, this must be explained to the consumer and written permission must be obtained. In the same way, a request to "test drive" a vehicle does not indicate an intent to initiate the purchase or lease of the vehicle. Accordingly, if a consumer asks to test drive a vehicle, the dealer must obtain written permission from the consumer before obtaining a report. Only in those circumstances where it is clear both to the consumer and to the dealer that the consumer is actually initiating the purchase or lease of a specific vehicle and, in addition, the dealer has a legitimate business need for consumer report information may the dealer obtain a report without written permission. In this regard, we note that obtaining information for negotiation purposes does not constitute a "legitimate" business need. The dealer must have a specific need for the information directly related to the completion of the transaction. For example, a dealer may obtain a report, if one is necessary, in order to arrange financing requested by the consumer.(1) The dealer may also obtain a report to check a consumer's creditworthiness when the consumer presents a personal check to pay for the vehicle. By contrast, a permissible purpose would not arise if a consumer intends to pay by cash
Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose NickL is not a troll. He's just a guy with strong opinions that are unaffected by evidence to the contrary. If he was a used car salesman, he certainly wouldn't benefit by convincing people they can't finance cars, or that they shouldn't buy them unless they can pay cash.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Auto dealer and permissible purpose NO they CAN'T pay cash...and they have to APPLY for a test drive...and they have 30 people in line when they open up!!!
