I have a similar situation. I live in Missouri and our house is held in joint tenancy of the entirety. A husband and wife are considered to hold jointly titled property that way. However, if I file alone and we have more than $8000 in equity in our home (the state exemption) then they could consider selling the house for my debt. We don't have that much equity. Also, if I just let the ccard bills go, since they are in my name only, creditors can not attach any jointly held property. I will probably either file Ch 7 or just let the cards go.
Total credit card debt is about $75,000. As I said above, I have kept up with the minimum payments but can no longer do it. Annual gross is about $80,000 total between the two of us, before taxes. We actually spend just over $5,000 per month, including car payments, house, food, insurance, etc., but not including the $1200 a month minimum on the credit cards. About $100 of this is principal, the rest is interest. At this rate, the principal will never be paid off. The house is titled in both our names, joint tenants with a right of survivorship. I know that means it goes to her automatically when I die, and does not have to go through the estate. I believe the estate by the entireties is for unmarried people living together (such as mother and daughter). When one dies, that persons share of the home goes into the estate and is distributed under the will. I don't know if I could change it now, even if it was to my advantage. It might be seen as hiding assets form creditors. This whole thing is depressing. I look at it as getting hit with bad illnesses that caused the problems. Maybe I was stupid not to have more in savings. My wife looks at it as a failure of mine and is not hesitant to remind me of this. She is very materialistic. The more I think about it, the more I think I will probably be living on the street in the very near future. Sorry to be so depressing. The reality of the situation has really hit me today and is getting me down.
"This whole thing is depressing. I look at it as getting hit with bad illnesses that caused the problems. Maybe I was stupid not to have more in savings. My wife looks at it as a failure of mine and is not hesitant to remind me of this. She is very materialistic. The more I think about it, the more I think I will probably be living on the street in the very near future. Sorry to be so depressing. The reality of the situation has really hit me today and is getting me down." ****************************************** Try not to get so depressed, I know it's easier said than done, but the situation, any situation, always seems more bleak than it really is, if you slip in to a deep depression, it's easy for everything to get overwhelming & lose perspective. You WON'T end up on the street!! Now, take a walk in the park or somewhere serene, & relax your mind, it's imperitive to maintain your sanity. You will get a lot of support from this board. Now, when you are in a good state of mind, please post the following: 1.) What is the state of your credit <rating> now? 2.) How did you end up with double digit apr's??
Just went outside for the mail - it's raining so the walk is out of the question. My scores are around 680 - they never budge. It seems like a lot of people here are stuck in that range. Getting to double digit APR's was a combination of things. As everyone here is aware, when your balances go up, the CC companies take advantage of you because you have no where to move your balances. Also, a paid charge off popped up on my reports just as my balances were getting high. It was a mistake, I never had a charge off in my life, but the CC companies used that as an excuse. When I got it removed, no one would lower my APR. I am now too much of a risk. Actually, Citi did lower my APR to below 10%. They are the only ones who have been reasonable in this whole thing. I decided to call my doctor and get an appintment. I probably need some help here. Posting here has made all of this really hit home and I can see how much deep doo-doo I am in. Thanks for the imput
Rabbit, The C-netters are giving you fine BK advice, as always. My family and I lived through a C13 at 100% repayment, you can live without credit, good or bad. Bankruptcy isn't an easy way out, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, if they do they are lying and they haven't lived it, says me. We are NOT our credit scores, our credit reports, our homes or our cars, AND God doesn't make mistakes when he's miraculously creating humans. I'm not Dear Abby, but your posts really concern me, the following in particular (these aren't in the order you posted them): The other problem is that my family is not at all supportive in this. My wife feels that I got sick, I got in debt, I should have to work it out. She will never file bankruptcy, and she does not want to lose the house. She is not being realistic, and there is nothing I can do about it. If the house goes, I will be gone too, living on the street. The house is more important to her. She is very much into financial success, and if the assets go, so does she. Your family is not supportive; you got sick and got into debt and should have to work it out? Pass Mrs. Rabbit the keyboard, I wanna talk to her! Rabbit, I'm not a marriage counselor either, I think you have far bigger problems than saving your house and cars and contemplating BK. Your wife would really walk if you lost the house? It's my humble opinion, that in a marriage both partners are equally responsible! There is near nothing that is more straining on a marriage than the difficulties you are describing, I know this, I lived this too. It will either make you stronger or rip you apart. The truth is, I would rather loose the house than Mr. Sassy. I'd rather live in a tent at the second tree on the left than to have a house with him not in it! I'm not understanding your wife and I'm not without compassion, we all have our limits, but in the end you have to know that your spouse is going to be there for you. Like it or not, you are married, there are legal obligations that go with a marriage -- she can't bury her head and pretend it's going to go away. BK and the circumstances leading up to it and through it, illness aside, is about a lifestyle that can't be supported for whatever reason. You can't get through a BK and NOT change your life, unless that is where you want to be again in the future. I got here because of two serious illnesses, losing my job, and disability. i have always handled everything responsibly, but this time I screwed up. The bottom line is that I can only pay the minimum on credit cards. That means not much more than interest. The principal will never go away. A second job is not an option. I can barely work one job with my disabilities. The credit card debt is in my name, not my wife. That is why I am thinking of filing bankruptcy for me, not her. Also, in the future, she could get car loans, so me having screwed up would not be a big problem Two illnesses, job loss and disability! Rabbit, that is an overflowing plate, you haven't screwed up! you haven't NOT been responsible! Life happens and it's happening to you. We don't know what hardballs life will throw us, we just have to adjust and live with them, hopefully learning something along the way and growing into better people able to be of service to others in the end. I think you are being way to hard on yourself -- this isn't a failure or lack of responsibility -- this isn't a screw up, and you shouldn't be shouldering the burdens of digging out alone. This whole thing is depressing. I look at it as getting hit with bad illnesses that caused the problems. Maybe I was stupid not to have more in savings. My wife looks at it as a failure of mine and is not hesitant to remind me of this. She is very materialistic. The more I think about it, the more I think I will probably be living on the street in the very near future. Sorry to be so depressing. The reality of the situation has really hit me today and is getting me down. Loving and being loved is the most important thing in this earthwalk, says me, the rest we get through. If your wife can't give you what you need at this time, do you have a friend or extended family member that could give you a shoulder and act as a support system? BK is hard for the strongest amongst us, but I really can't imagine it without someone standing behind you. If your wife isn't part of the solution, Rabbit, she's part of the problem. That's the truth of the matter as I see it. I certainly don't want to add to your grief and struggles in having said that. Here's a link to a BK site that I found particularly helpful, it explains the ins/outs of BK and in layman's terms: http://www.bankruptcy-expert.com/contents.htm Additionally, I had previously posted on looking back at BK to someone that was asking the same question about filing, I still feel the same way. It is cut and pasted below and from this thread: http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?threadid=26005 Sometimes we just have to keep on keepin' on! There's nothing you can buy that is worth dying for --Good luck to you. Sassy Re: personal finance preschooler sassyinaz | 1074 posts since Jan 2002 63.11.160.157 | 05.28.2002 @ 18:18 soren, Could I turn back the hands of time and the effects of gravity ;-), I too didn't learn all I really needed to know in kindergarten, but I did live through bankruptcy. There's always an an opinionated amount of posting into whether one should file or not BUT the last this came up on the board, of those that had actually filed BK, there were no regrets that I am recalling, the nasty opinions seem to come from those that haven't walked in those shoes, so beware there's preconceived stereotypes and judgments that people try to impose on you for having decided to file but the reality really is, we've all got to do what we must do and to the best of our abilities at the time and under the circumstances at the moment. The effects of gravity aside, if I could go back to that time in my life now, prior to filing, I think I would have been well advised to have done some BK preparation before filing -- BK homework! I'd stop throwing away those bills and gather up the piles on the desk (with no bottom that you can see, mind you) and sit down and really assess my situation -- who says I owe what and to whom. I LOVE lists, likely I'd have burned through a yellow pad or two, figuring out just where I stood financially. I'd answer the phone and tell the collectors to communicate with me only in writing or get an answering machine and send letters to those calling requesting they communicate only in writing. I'd get copy of my credit reports and see what's reporting and compare it to my lists above. I'd send validation letters to all collection agencies disputing their claims. I'd send OC verification letters to all creditors requesting the same. I would NOT live my life in fear and on the verge of tears feeling shameful and guilty. The hardest part, especially when you're in your shoes before BK is everything is so out of control and it feels overwhelming and chaotic, the stacks of bills and phone calls only add to that -- If I could go back, I would take some control, not in trying to avoid BK but in preparing for it. I'd clean up my existing creditors via the methods this board promotes the best I could, then I'd hold my head high, sign where I have to sign, and get back to living. Sassy
Thanks for the encouragement. I did call the doctor and got an appointment. A large part of my problem is that I have no support at home on these problems. I have always had to deal with stuff on my own - the illnesses, the financial , and so on. I suspect I need to talk with a counselor to work out some issues. Probably need some good medications too
I looked at the bankruptcy site you provided the link for. It has a lot of good info, including answers to some of my questions. I will spend some time tonight reviewing it.
Could I just speak up for the wife for a second. We don't know her and we don't know her opinion on this matter. This is an issue that needs to be discussed between Mr. Rabbit and Mrs. Rabbit first and a BK lawyer second. She may have different views or ideas about what is going on around her home. Mr. Rabbit is speaking his opinion and his thoughts and that's fine. But, I think we need to give Mrs. Rabbit the same respect. Not to mention she will probably be very hurt to find that she is being called unreasonable, materialistic, and cruel on a credit board where she has probably never frequented. There are three sides to every story...his, hers, and everyone else's. Dani
Dani: I did not intend to bash my wife. I am just stating the facts as they are and the reality that I have to deal with. As an example, on Sunday, she gave me a long list of things we have to have now - new tile in kitchen, wallpaper in dining room, foyer redone, new large screen tv and the cabinet to put it in, new carpeting (ours is three years old). She is not facing reality. As I said before, this is something I have to deal with myself. I did not mean to sound so mean.
Rabbit, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive I just didn't want to judge your wife without her input. I feel for your situation, you're dealing with a lot and am probably being pulled in umpteen directions. First, you have to lay down the law. Mrs. Rabbit cannot continue to buy, buy, buy when you both are facing financial difficulties. I have a husband, a sister-in-law, and a mother who think like this. Your wife wouldn't be a Gemini by chance, would she? You have some very hard decisions to make and I wish you the best. Dani
Dani, thank you! I didn't mean to read so judgmental of Mrs. Rabbit, and yeah, my own words are reading that way to me too. I'm sure she has a story and opinion. My concern wasn't really Mrs. Rabbit one way or the other but that Mr. Rabbit feels like, even if only his perception, that he is doing this alone and that the house is more important than he is. I'm sorry, Mrs. Rabbit. Sassy
Anything said against Mrs. Rabbit is just a reaction to what Mr. Rabbit is saying about her... 75k worth of debt doesn't just pop up overnight. It sounds like when things were going bad, they were still trying to live the same kind of lifestyle as always. Rabbit...my advice to you is to tell your wife that there isn't any more money, and that since she is refusing to take part in the debt, you feel that you shouldn't pay for anything that she wants any longer. In order to deal with this, you are going to have to get the root of the problem...your wife's extravagant spending. I'm not saying that you didn't spend any money on those cards, but from the way you are describing your wife and her spending habits, somthing's got to give. If I were you I would go see a bankruptcy attorney PRONTO. Discover your options and take the best course of action that you can. Our thoughts are with you with whatever choices you do make.
Hey Rabbit, When I "hit the wall" like you are, my wife was unsupportive too. Her denial that things were not right contributed in a major way to the problem. Like you, all the debts were in my name. She did not work and refused to work. I implored her to work with me to get the household budget under control. She make a couple of token jestures (cut a coupon out of the paper, but never used it). So I did what I had to do, and what you will have to do. Take the bull by the horns and take control. Even if it means selling the car and house. You wil find out soon enough how comitted she is to your marriage. If she is not, then it is better to find out now than later. In my case, I quit my job and went into business for myself. It scared the hell out of her. I knew that if I stayed in my job, then I would just continue to sink futher in debt. I had to try my own way, or fail. I did not feel that I had a choice any more. Personally, we ended up divorced. She was not willing to do what it took to maintain a marriage. She wanted her luxuries, so she found a rich boyfriend and I divorced her. If you ask her today, she will tell you that it was the biggest mistake she ever made. I'm glad I did it now. I'm glad that I was put in a position that tested her resolve, and showed me that she had none. Now I am dating a woman who doesn't back down when things are tough. When I am broke, we go on a homemade picnic in the park. She doesn't complain that I can't afford to take her to dinner that week. When money is tight, she doesn't bitch, she asks what she can do to help out. What a difference! Just lay down the law with the family. They wil either have to shape up or ship out. What is making you depressed and sick is the indicision and doubts you feel. Make your decisions and carry them out. Trust me, you will feel much stronger once you do. Regarding the son's car. I think the circumstances warrant a renig on deal. If he really wants to date a girl so far away, then he can find a way to do it. You don't have to pay for it. A couple of other toughts. Why not tell us what state you are in? A couple of people have asked and you have not answered directly. They ask because they want to give you appropriate advice and make you aware of any additional protection your state provides. Since you don't know the difference between Chapter 7 and 13 BK, you really need to pick up that "Money Troubles" book by Nolo Press (all good bookstores will carry it), and hire a goof BK lawyer/lawfirm. You have a lot to learn before you start making important decisions. Keep us updated.
rabbit this isn't the site I was looking for but it gives a pretty good explanation. http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/PO8_7560.asp also http://www.toolkit.cch.com/text/PO8_7501.asp I don't think this would be considered against the law since you are not hiding your property...just changing how you hold title. Tuit
I don't have any good advice for you, but I wanted to let you know that I feel for you. I really hope your are able to work out your financial situation, and I hope your marriage survives too.
