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Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by Gemini, Sep 6, 2001.
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You can sign up with Creditexpert.com. (Experian) They extend a 30 day free trial period, after which they will bill your credit card $79.00 annually.
Throughout the year you can review your credit report and score as much as you like.
The score obtained through creditexpert.com isn't the FICO, it's a fake-o.
See scorepower.com for the Equifax FICO score. The other two of the Three Blind Mice aren't releasing their Fair, Isaac scores to consumers.
Perhaps FICO is the fake score. Lenders can choose to use the FICO score, or the in-house scores from the other agencies. Whichever one they actually choose to use is the real score.
Oh, I see: Semantics.
As early as June of 2000, Fair, Isaac claimed that, "FICO scores are used by US lenders to make billions of credit decisions each year, including more than 75 percent of mortgage loan originations.
How many originations use the TransUnion score?
What I learned from that quotation is:
25 percent of mortgage loan originations don't use FICO scores at all.
75 percent of mortgage loan originations use FICO, but not even Fair Isaac claims they are used to the exclusion of all other scores.
Imagine using Fair Isaac itself as a source of information! Of course they would exaggerate their own power and influence. They're trying desperately to discourage diversity in credit scoring in order to preserve their dominant position.
Imagine messages from anonymous sources on the Internet as a source of information!
You didn't answer the question, you're contradicting yourself, and you're stating the obvious.
While you're scrambling for the answer, here's another well-known authority on the issue of the prevalence of the FICO: http://www.equifax.com/press_room/press_releases2001/2001_03_19.html
Are you saying Equifax is using puffery, too? If it isn't seventy-five percent, what is it? 50? 23 1/2? 2?
You know, it's not easy or quick coming up with all these quotes to refute your balderdash. How about you giving some sources for your comments rather than me doing all the work? I'll even change that TransUnion score question to make it easier for you to answer.
Who is ONE lender using the TransUnion score?
Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.
You're anonymous too. I'm just assuming that you're telling the truth about your name.
Here are my responses to your multiple logical fallacies, to which you are addicted and which you have attempted to substitute for information. I don't have nearly as much information as you do, but I can spot counterfeit arguments (as well as attempts to bully me) from three thousand miles away. Unless you're posting from offshore, that should be sufficient.
(1) I'm not here to answer your questions, so your claim that I did not is totally irrelevant. I'm here to challenge your malicious statement that the CreditExpert score is a "fake-o."
(2) The Trans Union link wasn't very enlightening. It didn't appear to contain any statements about rates of usage for either FICO or Trans Union scores. Since it wasn't really a "quote" as you claimed, but merely a link, I'm not sure which passage would support your position. If you would provide a real quote, I could respond to that.
I'll respond to your other fallacies shortly. Got to go.
Actually, Rich, the evidence would suggest that Greg Fisher isn't anonymous at all.
First, note his IP address above his postings -- 184.108.40.206. This resolves to "d5.as8.dytn.oh.voyager.net". Note the "dytn.oh" there -- Dayton, Ohio.
Now note the web page he lists as his -- CreditScoring.com. Many of us will vouch that Greg Fisher has indeed maintained that web page for quite awhile. Moreover, he is the same Greg Fisher who is nationally known as being yet another reason why the big CRAs have opened their scores to the public to one degree or another. It happens that Mr. Fisher has an incredible and documented history of being a royal pain in Equifax's posterior (among others).
To continue with the discussion of whether Greg Fisher is anonymous or not, I used a public database that anyone can use (see Register.com or NetworkSolutions.com) and did a lookup on the domain name "CreditScoring.com". Lo and behold, here is the information I find there (and you can do the same, LOL):
Greg Fisher (CREDITSCORING2-DOM)
Dayton, OH 45409-0342
Domain Name: CREDITSCORING.COM
Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
Fisher, Greg (GF2599) gfisher@ERINET.COM
Dayton, OH 45409-0342
Record last updated on 15-Jun-2001.
Record expires on 28-Jul-2003.
Record created on 28-Jul-1998.
Database last updated on 8-Sep-2001 13:22:00 EDT.
Hey, it's a Dayton, Ohio address and phone number! Wow, this resolves to the IP address above his messages here as well! Goodness, this doesn't look like an anonymous poster.
Better revise your latest argument.
Doc, A Fan of Greg Fisher
A fine argument, Doc. Since "anonymous" literally means "without a name," I was wrong anyway. So was the estimable Fisher, when he attempted to dismiss me as an "anonymous source." I have never claimed to be a source of information anyway, only of valid reasoning concerning available information. And I am pseudonymous, not anonymous.
It is possible to register pseudonymously for a web domain. It is also possible to post pseudonymously on this board. Your posts and mine are both evidence of that.
The real intent of my statement is that Greg Fisher is a stranger to me, and I have no reason to accept his bare assertions as proof. Needless to say, his logical fallacies can never constitute proof either.
Consider my statement about Fisher revised. It was not an argument. My arguments precede and follow this post, if anyone cares to read them. Thank you for reading my previous post.
You can see that I'm bored and indulging my addition to CreditNet.
(3) The Trans Union site contained statements applicable to the FICO issue. For example: " There are literally thousands of scoring models used in the credit industry." Unless FICO has thousands of scoring models, this would support the idea that models other than FICO are used.
Trans Union also stated that each credit bureau has several different scores, which it sells to lenders for different purposes. This demolishes the myth of a single FICO score being sold by the credit bureaus, which however sell "fake" scores to consumers. It demonstrates that either:
(A) There are multiple FICO scores sold by the credit bureaus, and the differing scores are no more definitive than any of the "fake," non-FICO scores;
or (B) Scores other than FICO scores are sold by the credit bureaus and used by lenders.
(4) Why do I believe the Trans Union site, and not the Fair Isaac site? It's a matter of facts and implications. I accept literally the facts offered on either site. But Fair Isaac creates the false implication that 75 percent usage is 75 percent exclusive usage. You seem to have accepted that false implication, since otherwise the 75 percent figure would be totally irrelevant to the question of whether non-FICO scores are used in cerdit decisions.
I also detect an attempt at intimidation by Fair Isaac, trying to imply that only FICO scores are real because FICO scores are so widely used. While Trans Union, being a credit reporting agency, also relies on intimidation, the page about Trans Union scores does not. Trans Union obviously does not have a dominant position in credit scores to protect, which is far from saying that Trans Union scores are never used.
I'll respond to your other fallacies later. Got to go. You and I both have lives, and it's Saturday night.
I hope your boredom originated before you read my post. Otherwise, I'm in trouble.
I'm bored and indulging also. Playing a game while I wait for someone else to post something, hehe.
(3) The only statements I found at the Trans Union link that seemed to apply were related to the multiplicity of credit models used in the industry. There was the revealing comment that each credit bureau has several different scores that it sells to lenders for different types of decisions. So your question about "who uses the Trans Union score" is meaningless. There is more than one Trans Union score, at least according to Trans Union. Trans Union also implies that all of them are used by lenders.
There was also the statement that "there are literally thousands of score models used in the credit industry." Unless there are thousands of FICO models, that would indicate that FICO scores aren't the only scores that are used.
(5) Your quote from Fair Isaac I accept as far as the facts it presents. They are, however, presented in a misleading way, in order to imply that FICO scores are used in isolation, without any other scores being used along with them. If you think this quote supports your position, then you yourself have accepted the misleading implication.
Let me repeat, the quote from Fair Isaac does NOT prove that FICO scores are the only real scores. It is logically possible for 3, or 10, or 100 different scores all to be used in 75 percent of mortgage lending decisions. What would make that possible would be non-exclusive use of FICO scores.
You have used circular reasoning, using the quote to prove market dominance by FICO, and then using the market dominance as a reason to assume exclusive use of FICO scores, which tells you how to interpret the quote.
(6) It is common knowledge that mortgage lenders use more than one score to make decisions. If the scores are all different, then they probably aren't all "the FICO score." Different histories on each report could yield different scores using the same FICO model, but if the histories are identical, then the existence of differing scores proves non-exclusive use of FICO scores.
(7) The figure of 75 percent used in the Equifax link proves no more than did use of the same figure by Fair Isaac. Let me repeat: it shows that 25 percent of mortgage lending decisions exclude the FICO score completely. How does that prove that scores other than FICO are "fake?"
It also proves nothing about the use of other scores along with FICO scores. It is logically possible, in the absence of further empirical evidence, that those 75 percent of mortgage decisions use 3, or 10, or 100 scores each. I know for a fact that the figure is usually at least 3 scores. And since the preceeding argument is theoretical, let's search for some plausibility here. What lender would be foolish enough to make a $100,000 or $200,000 mortgage loan on the basis of a single score?
If you care to respond with evidence and logic, then I'm interested in this subject. If there are subtleties to the definition of "FICO scores" that I don't understand, then I need to listen and will. But unfortunately, you have already sneered at "semantics."
Since I care about semantics, I realize that the word "malicious" was excessive. I don't know what Greg Fisher's motive was, but I doubt if it was malice.
Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.
Re: The question
geeze Greg...I've seen you post for a while and never went to your site, but you have a lot of interesting stuff on there....
Re: The question
I'll respond to the numerous and voluminous messages, but first: Does the lack of response to the question mean there's nobody using the TransUnion score-- one of the the fake-Os: The second rate, late-to-the-party, just-a-formality, exploiting-the-loophole, only-doing-it-to-comply-with-the California-law scores?
Re: The question
If you're looking for lender who use TU, there have been 343 inquiries added to the MillCBS Ultimate Creditor/CRA List since Jan '01. Equifax: 360 and Experian: 365. Feel free to search for yourself. Of course, keep in mind that these inquiries were added by the visitors to the site, so, YMMV.
BTW: I got to reminiscing the other day and just *had* to pull up one of your old one-liners for a great laugh. Remember this one:
"Do you mean get down to brass tacks, or cut to the chase? You can bet I'll get to the bottom dollar of it."
I still crack myself up reading that one ...