I'll try to make this brief... My grandfather gave me permission to use his credit card at the end of November 2003. I incurred charges of approx $2,500 in moving expenses & furniture on the card. At the time we made the agreement to repay, we both signed, with another person as a witness, a loan repayment agreement for $1,800. I was unsure that the charges would be higher, and stated to him that if they WERE higher, to provide me his c.c. statement and the agreement WOULD be rewritten. He was given a *copy* of the original agreement for $1,800 while I retained the original. The witness also has a *copy*. [[The agreement states very clearly that the $1,800 was to repaid by April 30, 2004; that the money owed was for charges on the dates of Nov 28-30, 2003 (he requested I not use the term 'credit card charges' on the document); and that he agreed to no interest for the loan.]] Several family events have preceeded my decision to move out of the house, and several have followed. My grandfather, although I kept in contact with him, decided to file a fraud case with MBNA America (Mastercard) for the total amount due, approx $2,500. The police report was filed January 1, 2004 and he immediately disputed all the charges with MBNA (Mastercard).He stated in that police report that I stole his credit card, his wallet, and used the card without his permission over a 3 day period of time. Keep in mind that an agreement was signed, on the third day I (supposedly) had used his card illegally. [[I have made three loan repayments of $125 to him, the first on January 14, and two more of the same amount each, $125.00. With each check I have included a very brief letter stating I am making a loan payment and that I wish to know the total amount due, if higher. He has not responded, but cashed all three checks promptly upon receipt.]] This matter may look criminal but I wish to take a different track. Any suggestions? My idea was to take him to small claims court (a civil action), request the statements, request his documentation of charges and correspondence between us, and then demand a settlement for the total charges from his credit card. I could pay him the total amount due almost immediately and hopefully settle this in the eyes of the DA's office. There is much more to what occurred, but for now I will stop here. Hope to get some ideas. And yes, I can and wish to repay him promptly.
It would seem to me that you should get that 3rd party witness involved. They were there to sign that agreement in the event of a dispute, well, it appears that there's a dispute. Call in the 3rd party in your defense, also get copies of the checks he cashed. If this case goes to trial, you can ask him what the checks were for. I mean, who just gives someone $125, 3 times if it's not a loan. OR you could turn it around and sue him for the 375 as an unpaid loan. My suggestion would be to not sue him for an unpaid loan. get that 3rd party. Good Luck. *disclaimer* I'm not a lawyer, I just know a little about the law.
Are you under investigation or something? Erica has a point. I'd just get an affidavit from your witness, and pay the stupid thing off, the $1800. And leave him to fend for himself. In the first place it's ILLEGAL to file a police report under false pretenses. Don't lose your documentation kiddo. Man - families are tough. .
Don't be surprised if your case is thrown out for the following reasons: 1. Small Claims Courts do not generally have the power to order specific performance, just to award money judgements. Since you are asking the Court to order him to do something (provide you with documentation), small claims lacks jurisdiction. 2. It will probably drive the judge into insanity to see the DEBTOR bring an action in Court to compel the CREDITOR to facilitate payment. It's just not usually done that way. I would just keep your documentation and keep making the payments and stay in contact with the witness - you may need him/her.
Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges Flying! If her witness dies, moves to mars, or goes into a coma, her attempt to "stay in touch" will be irrelevent. OP - get an affidavit. .
Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges There are a few more points I'd like to make involving this matter: 1) The witness is my mother, and from what my brother has told me, she pushed my Grandfather into filing a police report & reporting the c.c. misuse to Mastercard. Me and my mother do not get along, never have and (not likely now!) never will. 2) The police have not tried to contact me regarding this, and have forwarded it to the State Attorney's office. No one is assigned to it, yet. 3) I'm current on payments, but remember the actual c.c. charges amounted to >$1,800 and that is what the loan agreement is for. My Grandfather has claimed I defrauded him (from my brother's words) 4) My mother was kind enough to Xfer **her** balances, from two different credit cards onto my Grandfather's card. So the total debt is actually more than $4,600. Now with this info, what do the legal eagles have to say about my chances of avoiding JAIL over a very calculated move on the part of my mother?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges The county is about to free a rapist from jail to make room for you. ""right...."" Sounds like a civil matter, not a criminal one. The police should see right through that.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/r I guess that the other stuff is irrelevant. I know that isn't what you wanted to hear, but let me explain. You have a signed agreement, I'm assuming it's dated. Your mother must answer truthfully under oath, that she witnessed the "promissory note" being signed and she signed it too, which means that she has to understand it. You and your grandfather had an agreement in writing. If I were you, and I'm not, I'd call the credit card company and tell them. It sounds to me like he's trying to collect from you, and never pay on the credit card, which is defrauding the credit card company. Just remember that I'm not a lawyer, I just know a little about the law.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges First off I actually believe you in some bizarre way, Im in Law Enforcement, (think shiny badge and blue uniform).. I have seen mothers be that cruel to their children. However im sure theres a mothers side to the story too, I have run into some pretty rotten kids, so here are my questions 1. why would you let a person who you knew did not like /get along with you wittness a document. 2. Why bother even signing a document, its pure bullsh*t anyhow. No collection can be enforced by him. its about as valid as a handshake. 3. How long did he wait till he reported that you stole the card.. weeks / months/ years. 4. Your mom wants to blame you for her transferred balances too.. remind her that a false police report is a M1 and carries a 6 month - 1000 penalty. So Im seeing that this goes nowhere not even to civil court, worst case scenario and I mean absolute worst, You get a petty theft conviction, and thats if they really wanna witch hunt you (which they wont). And you get a short 5 day stint in the city jail, probably on work release.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges 3 hots and a cot for free? Best offer I've had all day.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges no way not on work release, they kick your A** out in the morning before breakfast to go to your job and you dont have to be back at the jail till after 7 pm. you get no hots and a mat in the corner to sleep on usually in a dorm type facility.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/r >quote: "It sounds to me like he's trying to collect from you, and never pay on the credit card, which is defrauding the credit card company." Whatever he is trying to do...I don't care. I want to pay him for the charges I incurred on his card, with his permission. And then forget about talking with him ever again. I believe that he intentionally wanted me NOT to write the correct amount on there, to collect that amount from *me* and charge if off to Mastercard. Believe me, I would love to bust him (87 yrs old or not...he's an @$$h0le) but I need to get on with life. God has his number, I believe. His personal history is 'colorful' to say the least.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card fraud/revenge/charges I allowed her to witness it because she's a bad liar and I wanted something on paper, with his signature. Secondly, if he had not done that with Mastercard I would have paid him back the full amount. It was up until April 30 so I would have no problem doing so. Third, the charges were incurred the last week of November, as far as I know he did not report it stolen until December 28. And the police report was filed Jan 1, 2004. Lastly, my mother states that I transferred the balances and not her. That would make no sense, and luckily I worked for Chase a few years back so I know there is a phone log/trace that WILL tie the bal Xfer back to her. Dealing with the police is not a nice matter if you get them on a bad day. Same with the D.A.'s office. What I consider to be a family conflict could very well look criminal to them. As with the Mob, you don't mess with Lefty unless you want a few broken bones. Just pay up...and the trouble will go away. Or atleast I hope it will!! "We don't live forever; we can't take it with us; why worry about it....money is just another object that comes and goes. Don't jeopardize your life over something that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit card Here's a funny thought. Send him a check for the full balance. Write the check out to the credit card company with the account number in the MEMO section of the check. He would recieve payment from you, but in order to use the payment he would be required to send the check to the credit card company. You would have copies of the checks from the 3 payments you sent him as well as a copy of the payment in full cashed by the credit card company. Or just send him payment in full, then contact his credit card company that he filed a fraud alert with sending them a copy of the agreement he had with you and copies of the 4 checks you paid him in full with, and let them SUE THE CRA* out of him and file charges of criminally filing fraud to defraud the credit card company. See if you paid him back, he can't really say he doesn't owe the credit card company and keep your cash.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Credit You know....that's the best idea I have heard all day. I would send him the check made out to the credit card company. He can't cash the damn thing......he's pretty much got the money in his hand, but it's so far away he can't touch it....bwahahahahahahaha.....it's brilliant.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cre #1. This sounds like a great idea and good sting on your grandpa, but I don't think this will hold up in a court. There are two different convenants at work here--the one between you and grandpa; and the one between your grandpa and the CC issuer. You have no involvement in the latter and can not insert yourself there. The promissory note is between you and the grandfather. If you don't make the check payable to him, you may be in breach of the agreement. #2. If I were you, I would make the check payable to your grandpa and send it to him CMRRR with restricted delivery. I would also check the rules in your state for restrictive endorsement on checks and include a restrictive endorsement that basically says the matter is settled once the check clears the bank. If anyone asks you anything, I would show the promissory note, the cancelled check with restrictive endorsement on the back and the CMRRR with restricted delivery green card. He's going nowhere fast on this fraud charge considering you and he executed the promissory note prior to him filing the fraud charge. #3. However I do have one question for you. Why would grandpa and mommy do this to you? What's going on with you and these people? When I first read your post, my first thought is that your grandpa may have been upset because he felt mislead as to the nature and the extent of the charges. Did you lead him to believe that you charged $1800 at the time the agreement was signed, when you knew full well that you had actually charged $2500? Does he feel lied to or cheated here? Also, you mentioned that the promissory note was signed 3 days AFTER the charges were made. Did you make those charges WITHOUT permission, prior to the promissory note being executed? Was the promissory note an attempt to smooth things over because you used the card WITHOUT permission? Without giving you the benefit of the doubt, here's what the situation looks like to me as a perfect stranger: You stole grandpa's credit card and charged it up to fund your move. Grandpa found out about the charges on the card and confronted you about it at a time when only $1800 in charges had posted to the account. You signed the promissory to note prevent him from pressing charges. After the promissory note was executed, more charges posted to grandpa's account. Grandpa, became upset and pressed charges. Is this what really happened?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cre Your at least guilty of bad judgement, if he is such an a**hole why would you even approach him in the first place. I think that the whole story is not being told. perhaps its time to come clean. the whole he is 87 and god has his number is quite a malicous statement. and the type of one that i usually hear from someone who is guilty of something. If i were you, I suggest you quietly stop talking to all parties involved. and let anyone with a problem with the actions come to you. Hold on to the agreement if a DA comes a knocking. If you continue to talk to these people who are accusing you of doing this, you are only going to get yourself in more trouble, believe me i see it all to often. And good attorney will tell you to not talk to anybody and for sure not your accusers. So long story short. dont even talk to them anymore, and if you must or feel the need to pay him, send a *bank cashiers check* CRRM made out to him.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cre You might consider sending a check made out to him and the CC company, so that both must endorse.
