Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

I would agree with that. However, the only contract that exists states it expired long before the time in question AND the amount that she agreed to on the contract is below the amount she was charged.

Which brings us to the point of: "Due to a computer error, she was over-billed. If she was not over-billed show us where she agreed to be billed that amount."

The OC doesn't even have any original bills with the 6 month premium on it. All they keep stating is we CHARGED you XXX amount. They don't have a single shread of evidence showing there was any agreement to pay that amount whatsoever.

They can't sue her because, as you stated originally, they would have the burden to show that she agreed to be charged the amount she was and they obviously can't prove that.

But, regardless, we can still sue on violations (even if that doesn't lead to deletion). I am figuring, somewhere down the line, somebody may say, hey, instead of losing $3000 in court, maybe we will just delete it.

Regardless of whether or not the debt is valid, the CA has violated the FDCPA and FCRA on numerous occassions and can be sued regardless. And, the OC has violated the FCBA. Again, regardless of the debt's validity.

She has not paid the debt to this point because it isn't valid. By paying it, it would seem as though she agreed to its validity. The $100 itself is of course not an issue.

Hopefully, we can push them down the road of "let's just delete to get rid of her." If not, we can pick up some cash along the way and then pay the $100 debt from the settlement.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

LOL....that is probably one of the only things we never tought of. But the payment was made in 2001 so I don't think they would have anything at this point.

That was pretty smart though!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

Yes we did. Quite a few times actually. This is why they refuse to settle now.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, this is a very small collection agency and has probably never dealt with anyone talking about FDCPA and FCRA violations.

I have clearly laid out their violations and told them we are going to sue but they just don't understand. They keep stating, sue us...we have proof you owe the debt (an old out dated contract and a computer file that says she agreed to a 6 month premium of X amount minus her payments = $100 past due).

They don't understand that, even if the debt is valid, they still violated the law regardless.

Even if we can't get a deletion, suing them for FDCPA and FCRA violations plus requiring them to fly in from another state would be nice!

Plus, I mentioned above, everyone talks tough about being sued but once they are and they realize they have to lose a day of work, get on a plane to come her, etc etc they often are willing to work something out but it isn't until they actually receive the summons.

So, we won't know until we actually sue. We have been fighting with them for almost 1 year now (January will be 1 year) and have tried every other possible avenue (FTC, BBB, AG against the OC, CA, the owner of the OC, and the CRA).

We wanted a lawsuit to be the last resort but it appears it has come to that.

As they said in their reply to one of the AG complaints, she even threatened to sue us just to scare us into deleting.

They also think we broke some law by stating in one letter that we wanted $1000 per violation or we would sue.

I am sure they think there is absolutely no chance we will sue.

 

I have been gone all day so I apologize for the delay in responding here.

There have been quite a few good posts since my last post so I will try to address everything here.

TO BUTCH

Yes, she should. But you're talking to the wrong people Sun. In your state there's an Insurance Department, whom, if they're anything like mine, will settle for ZERO nonsense from these companies. The Ins. Depts. are there to protect consumers.

I FIRMLY believe they should be your next call.

Will do. This is an excellent idea. I thought something like this existed but all I could find was the Attorney General. Now, after going back to michigan.gov, I see the insurance division for complaints.

I am going to submit an online complaint since it leaves a nice paper trial. So far, our online complaints with the AG have gone very smoothly.

If that fails, (and since it's so small) PAY IT. This removes the legitimacy of the debt from the table and CLOSES the account.

Now you can sue for other violations, probably in small claims. Now that it's paid, which is really all they want is money, they'll probably just drop it.

Ah...I see where you are going here. They keep saying...sue us, we have proof you owe us the money. Well, if we pay it, then they really have no defense whatsoever.

They have already clearly said though (both them and the OC) that if we pay, they will NOT delete.

If we do pay it, I may request some assistance in helping me write the perfect statement so that they can't misconstrue her payment into being an admission of guilt.

Something like: I am paying you in an effort to better my credit and not because I believe this debt is valid. Therefore, I request that you continue to report this tradeline as disputed like you currently are.

But, by paying them and then suing them, I see your point because now, they won't be saying "we have proof you owe us" because we already paid. I bet what they will be thinking is that we will be suing for deletion thinking that because we paid, we think it will be deleted and since it wasn't, we are suing them.

So they will go to court saying: "Payment does not equal deletion" and we will be saying "They violated FCBA XXX and FCRA XXX and they will be saying HUH?" To this point, they continue to say "WE have not violated any laws. We have proof she owes us." They just don't understand that they have (even when I clearly explained they had and pointed out exactly what laws they broke). Like I said, they aren't a bright bunch.

I've bumped a special tactic I came up with some time ago.

Would purposely post-dating the check be considered entrapement?

Is it true that, you can write in the "memo" section "for deletion" and if they cash it, there is a contractual obligation to delete?

I have more.....on to the next post.

 

TO EVERYONE

If she pays, will the account still be notated as in dispute by the CA. I am asking because according to her Privacy Guard 3 score report, the tradeline is having a "low" bearing on her score. I believe this may be due to their note that the consumer disputes this account.

According to Experian, she has an "excellent" credit score right now.

I perhaps should be starting a new thread with this next question but since it is related:

Any reason why, for the last 30 days, this account was removed from her report? When I recently filed a complaint with the BBB and AG against Experian, the account disappeared. I thought it was gone. However, in the past week, it came back.

It doesn't look like it was deleted and then re-added because all the details are still the same (ie. it states this account was last verified on 6/03 and it still has the note that it is being disputed by consumer, etc). Everything looks exactly the same. It just disappeared for 30 days.

And some more to come....

 

WOULD THIS BE A GOOD COMPLAINT LETTER TO THE INSURANCE DEPT OF MY STATE?

When I file her complaint, instead of saying that she paid and they never got it (since we can't prove it), I was going to try to exploit the OC's FCBA violation.

BEGIN COMPLAINT (this is a rough version though so ignore the formatting)

In December of 2002, I noticed a collection agency listing a debt on my credit report. Apparently, Citizens Insurance Company assigned this debt to them claiming I failed to make an insurance payment on XX (I will have to lookup the date).

I had no knowledge of this alleged past due payment until I pulled my credit report. I was never contacted by the collection agency or the original creditor. So, I attempted to contact the collection agency directly and have come to find out that a billing error was made and due to this billing error, Citizens Insurance is wrongly stating I owe them money.

According to their records, I had insurance with them from XX to XX (I will have to double check the dates) and I failed to make my last month's payment. As confirmed by the new insurance company I switched to, I did indeed have insurance with Citizens during the time period in question. However, because all my payments were made in cash in a drop box, I never received any receipts nor can I prove I paid.

However, assuming I did not pay my last month as they claim, I still dispute a major error in their billing history. I just recently became aware of this error when I received a copy of my original contract when starting my original policy with Citizens.

Citizens is stating I am past due $100 based on the fact that I agreed to a 6 month premium of XXX. However, a billing error has occured. As proved by the contract they provided me, I was over-billed for my 6 month premium.

As admitted by Citizens directly, the terms of this contract continued to renew and therefore the 6 month premium listed on this contract also continued to renew in the same amount.

Given that I did not move, change vehicles, change my vehicle coverage, or obtain any tickets, we agreed the premium would be the same as proved by the contract I have in my possession.

With this being the case, even if my last payment was not received as they claim, it was not due anyway because I was over-billed. Since I paid monthly, I had no idea until recently what 6 month premium I was billed.

I now know I was over-billed. The reason I have not complained about this before to you is because I had no knowlege of this alleged debt until 12/02 when I pulled my credit report.

I had not received any letters from Citizens or the collection agency to that point. When I pulled my report and saw the negative listing, I immediately began procedures to dispute it. I have tried every means available to me to work this issue out with the insurance company and the collection agency directly but have been unsuccessful.

Most importantly, Citizens ignores my letters. I have sent them three letters via signature confirmation priority mail requesting that they provide me some original bill or contract during the time period in question showing that I agreed to pay XXX for the 6 month premium in question. Although each letter was signed for, they have ignored each request.

Because they are unable to provide any proof whatsoever that I agreed to what they claim, I have persistently tried to exercise my rights under the Fair Credit Billing Act which says I am allowed, under law, to write the creditor directly at the address on the back of my bill for billing disputes in order to make my complaint known.

Since I have never received a past due bill, I am unable to dispute this debt properly with them as the FCBA outlines. However, because they refuse to provide me a bill and therefore the opportunity to dispute the 6 month premium, as stated in the FCBA, they may no longer collect on this alleged debt, regardless of its validity.

Despite this, they continue to assign the debt to a collection agency and the collection agency continues to list the debt on my credit report.

I have tried multiple times to dispute this problem directly with Citizens but due to their refusal to reply, I am unable to comply with the strict procedures laid out in the Fair Credit Billing Act detailing the exact way this dispute must occur.

As clearly stated in the FCBA, they have given up their right to collect and I wish for them to therefore cease all attempts to obtain this debt and request that they immediately stop listing this negative information on my credit report.

END COMPLAINT

more to come......

 

POSSIBLE PROBLEM WITH COMPLAINT LETTER

Even if they agree that she was suppose to be charged the 6 month premium the old contract states, she would still end up being past due $20 by missing the last payment as they claim.

Do you think we should still go down that road knowing that she would still be past due or should we just claim she was over-charged period (and give no amount).

What I think are key points in the complaint

I think there are some key points here.

1) The insurance company keeps saying, if this debt isn't yours show us proof. Well, I clearly laid out in the letter that the bills were paid at night using cash in a drop-box like all other payments. I have proof (from Citizens) that this is indeed the case (that everything was paid in cash).

2) We admit insurance was provided in the period in question. They keep stating, if this debt isn't yours, show us proof that you had insurance somewhere else during the timeframe in question. This negates this claim.

3) I do not vigorously pursue the avenue of "we paid and they just didn't get it" since that is a losing battle since we have no proof whatsoever.

4) I establish the fact that she was over-billed and they can't prove otherwise because they have no original account records.

5) We established the fact that they refuse to reply so even if the debt was valid, it can't be collected upon under the FCBA (which is really the key point here)

6) It has taken us so long to file the complaint because she received no letters or past due notices from either the CA or OC. It was not until she pulled her report in 12/02 that she became aware of this issue. Since then, she has pursued all avenues and because of this, there has been a delay in filing the complaint but you have no other choice.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

Unfortunately though, as Butch points out, it appears that may be her only avenue.

If it does come to suing them, I may send them a copy of the lawsuit but I am wondering if that won't make it appear like she is desperate.

Kind of like saying...okay...I AM SUING YOU NOW.. SEE instead of just letting them get served and then contacting me.

I did already try the formal complaint route and they just laughed.

They thought I was breaking some law by attempting to settle with them outside of court and requesting money from them for their violations.

They do not at all understand what is going on here.

I can tell by the way they replied to the AG complaint.

They just continue to insist since they have proof she owes the money, they can't be sued and since they have proof, they couldn't have possibly broke any laws.

Good idea...we will look into that.

I don't think they ever said they can't delete (they may have though). What I know they said is that, we won't delete if you pay. It will be updated to show you paid it but will remain on your report.

I may have posted previously that they said they can't (but I probably mis-typed). She said they won't and they said a paid debt is not removed from a credit report.

But, even if they said they can't and I called them out on it, sure, they could delete it but only if they were willing to settle. They have already clearly established they will not settle anything.

Is this listed somewhere on the Experian report? I don't see that.

I see:

Date opened, Reported Since, Date of Status, Last Reported, and then in the Account history, there is a date which also matches the date appearing the status line and the recent balance line.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

SHOOT!

I think you are right...I completely missed that.

It says specifically:

"It does not cover installment contracts - loans or extensions of credit you repay on a fixed schedule."

I don't know if it would be considered an extension of credit but she did repay on a fixed schedule.

Oh boy.. I guess that screws up my complaint to the insurance dept. and voids all the letters I sent them directly claiming my rights under the FCBA.

 

Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

 

Re: Re: Does lawsuit ever equal deletion?

Oh, I understand that very well...tell my sister that though.

This whole thread is about her ridiculous payment methods. I pay everything by credit card.