Re: My 2 cents I'm so disheartened by all of this. The stress and anxiety is just killing me. I've just gotten off the phone with American Express and they absolutely refused to work out anything with me. They informed me that they have no hardship program and that they are unable to even lower my interest rates due to my late payments. I informed them that I have no assets, little income and am considering bankruptcy. She actually told me to pursue that option if I must I told her I really want to work something out mutually beneficial but it fell upon deaf ears. Hedwig, you're right. I'm trying to avoid BK at all cost because I don't want it to affect me for the rest of my life when I apply for jobs or loans for a practice. I'm sure there will be times when I'll be asked during a job search if I've ever filed BK. I want to meet my debt obligations. I made a series of mistakes that resulted in this massive debt, most of it as a result of my coping with depression. I never bought any merchandise with the debt so there's nothing for me to liquidate. My sole possessions are a bunch of books, some clothes, a computer and a cheap stereo system. I'm trying to clean up my life but these bastards refuse to work with me. I guess they just want their 24% interest. I can't ask my parents for help because I don't want to be more of a burden to them. I don't want to disappoint them and suffer the additional humiliation of being such a wreck. If there are some decent CCCS programs out there, I would like to give it a try. If not, I'm seriously contemplating Ch7 BK at this point.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Drowning in debt. Please help! I think many of the legitimate counseling services are like that. They get lower rates, but they don't get your balances lower (read "written off"). Most will also provide counseling services to help with budgets, etc. In fact, I believe CCCS was the original one, and that's where it started--to help people learn to budget and handle finances, and helped by getting interest rates lowered.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drowning in debt. Please help! You are comparing apples to oranges. Credit counseling is not debt negotiation. I used credit counseling several years back. The one funded by the United Way. Was I satisfied - yes Was my cr screwed up - I don't know, didn't care, I was in over my head, so I wasn't worried about it. Was my cr screwed up long term - no all "in credit counseling" notations were removed shortly after leaving the program. I had exactly ONE creditor that marred my report. A couple of nutcases later and is a positive tradeline. Would I do it again - Hopefully I will never be in the position I was in again. But YES I would. I do not judge people who file BK, but it is not a personal choice for me. Advice - If you choose credit counseling do your homework, and don't just jump on the one that promises you the smallest monthly payment.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drowning in debt. Please help! It is definitely a DEBT NEGOTIATION COMPANY which is the same as a CREDIT COUNSELING SERVICE. We're talking about $60,000 worth of debt here...was your MBNA account anywhere near that amount???? I seriously doubt it. So comparing your one account to Stress's four huge account balances is like comparing a monkey and a great ape. Stress I actually did bks for a living for six years. Before that I was a Sr.VP at one of the largest banks in the country and worked on Wall Street in retail operations. Therefore I have exposure to both sides of the coin. I have an MBA from Kellogg School of Business (Northwestern). Right now I am working on a professional degree (so I am accumulating more than your cc debt in student loans). As I have said before I am not a newbie on this subject matter. A bankruptcy 7 WILL NOT AFFECT YOUR FUTURE AS A DOCTOR. Your future employers will not give a s**t about your finances. They will only care whether you can treat patients effectively. Unlike lawyers who have to go through a rigorous "character and fitness" evaluation before sitting for their state's bar exam (even then a bk just has to be explained...circumstances, age, family situations, illness etc). The difference between MDs and JDs is that JDs have a fiduciary responsibility to their clients. Doctors do not have a fiduciary responsibilty so their financial background does not come into play. Do yourself a favor...file a BK 7 and then get on with your life. No one else has given you a more thorough evaluation of your situation than I have. You should thank your supreme being that it isn't 60K in student loans as then a bk would be impossible. My prescription is to re-read my posts TID for 7 days and then make an appointment with a competent bk atty. clc
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drowning in debt. Please help! But he's already indicated several times that he DOESN'T want to file bankruptcy. Some of us feel a moral obligation to pay our debts.
Re: Re: My 2 cents This is exactly the reason BK laws are available to you. It gives you a chance to "clear the slate" and begin anew! The BK will eventually be gone from your reports. If anyone needs to ask, so what? yes you did declare BK at one time, so did 250,000 other people a year do so!. The burdens and stress you feel now will be gone, and you can start fresh. If the CC Co.s refuse to work with you and you have no assets, it is YOUR RIGHT to declare BK. Don't let the stress and anxiety over this disrupt your medical studies. You need to focus all your energy there, not worrying about BS from CA's, etc. Just my 2cents
Re: Re: My 2 cents No onje WANTS TO HAVE MAJOR SURGERY but if your doctor says it's major surgery or you'll die...how much more info would you need? Stress is much better educated about his alternatives than he was a couple of days ago. Most people don't go and obtain credit cards and then do willy-nilly charging with the idea that they will file bk to get rid of it. It would be like saying on your wedding day..."This is a fun party but if I don't like the future outcome I can always get a divorce and have another great party." I am also sure that 60K was not Stress's initial balances. The 60k is the amount that has accumulated while he has been paying 20%-24% on revolving accounts. So he would be mostly discharging interest. Where is the moral high ground here???? When the prime rate is at a historical low and CC companies are still charging those rates. I can say this with absolute certainty if Doc Stress discharges his 60K in bk the CC comapnies would not even notice it. They have already collected plenty. Stress, the anti-anxiety drug most effective and therapeutic in your case is BK 7. Get rid of the stress you are feeling so you can learn the hands on practice you were educated for. All I can say is I'm happy I'm not one of your patients right now...with the stress you are enduring how can you perform on a 48 hour shift??? clc Sorry I am presuming Stress is a he but if it is a she accept my gender biased references...lol.
Re: Re: My 2 cents I'm not sure how moral play a roll in this. People have differents reason for filing be it loss of jobs...illness..or my dumb mistake cosigning for my ex and being left to play his bills. The laws were established to help americans for whatever reason their filing. Will people take advantage of it probably yes but for those of us who truly need it thank God it's an option. Does it make you a bad person NO. It's amazing that we are having this debt in the middle of an war that our country is spending billions of our tax payer money to fight. When our people at home can't even get extension on their 6mths of unemployment in an market where jobs are still tight. And let's not forget everything around us is going up including gas...but our pay checks remain the same. I say if you feel moral about file a bk13 at least the credit card sharks get something.
STRESS...we all have it! STRESS, I don't have a lot of valuable information to provide. The advice you've received thus far seems to come from people who have a lot of experience regargding the topic (clc) or who are very committed to their past decisions (struggler). I don't think any of them will lead you down a better or worse path. The ultimate decision is yours. I can tell you my story which is that a divorce left me with a LOT of debt and I filed for BK7 and it was discharged in 1999. Fast forward to present: I anticipate closing on a beautiful house in a wonderful neighborhood at the same rate as most of my neighbors may have been offered who have always had "great credit". I don't advocate BK because I admit deep down I do have some sort of feeling of "failure" if you will because I had to actually file but at the same time I know that if I hadn't done it, I'd probably still be paying off those debts today and doing not much else with my life. I understand that the fact that you are working on becoming a doctor makes you fearful of what effects a BK will have on your ability to secure a specific license or what have you in the future. I can't offer any knowledge regarding this I don't know whether this will have an adverse effect of not, but remember your credit report will not list your BK after 10 years and you may not be "ready" to get into your own practive (thus the need for loans etc.) in EXACTLY four years when you complete your training. I know you're optimistic about your future but after your training you may consider working for an institution where your skills are enhanced even further yet you receive a better salary and you can move forward from there. Good luck, sorry you are so disheartened with your troubles right now but remember this won't last FOREVER! Hang in there.
Re: Re: My 2 cents Stress, The only "correct" answer here is the one you're most comfortable with. Upon looking over this thread again, clc seems to be taking a "Bankruptcy or Death" stance and I seem to be taking a "Bankruptcy: The Fate Worse Than Death" stance. Only you can make the "right" decision and I'm confident that you'll make the best one for you. You already seem discouraged and depressed enough without making a decision that you're inherently against: bankruptcy. As for American Express, I have no experience with them, but I heard the same "We're Sorry, We Can't" chorus from my creditors at first when they were slamming me a few years ago. It turned out that..TA-DA!!... what do you know, they actually DO have an "Assist" or "Re-Age" plan to help me out. In fact, all five of them did, after swearing that they didn't. Imagine that. I suspect that they ALL have such a program. What you got today from the AMEX customer service rep is all you'll ever get from them. They're low-level employees who can barely make the decision about what to have for lunch today, let alone cutting you a break on your interest rate. The sad thing, again, is that your account has to go into default before you can even get to a person with ANY decision-making power. (Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that AMEX has such a program, but I'll bet you anything that they do). This is totally none of my business, but about the idea of asking for your parents' help.... you aren't borrowing money from them; you're only using their good credit history to pull yourself back up. That's a big difference. Make this fact clear to them. In fact, make it clear that they'll never be involved in the money in any direct way. Offer to set up a bank draft that will automatically pay the payment each month. Remember also that the payment will be much lower than the four high-interest cards combined. Again, it's none of my business whatsoever and I would never push you toward any particular route, but it's clear that you don't want to declare BK.
Re: Re: My 2 cents Struggler, The best solution would be to ask my parents to take out a home equity loan for me. However, I just absolutely cannot get myself to do that. I would rather throw myself off a bridge before I resort to that. What kind of a son would I be if I burden them with additional worries like that?! Instead of helping them with their retirement, I'm still dependent on them. Heck, they've already given me money to buy a car! Here's my situation in more details: I've reviewed all my outstanding balances and they total $52,000. All cards carry interest rates of 25%. My credit score is roughly 500 so I cannot get any more credit to do balance transfers. Luckily, my student loans are only $120,000. My monthly credit card payments are $1160. I can afford this right now if I cut everything down to the basic necessities. To be able to afford books and licensing exam fees, I would need for my monthly payments to be reduced to $800. Again, I would like to avoid BK because I don't want to suffer the guilt, humiliation, stigma and potential difficulties in my future job-search. My financial picture will gradually improve over the next few years as my stipend during residency will go up a bit each year (~ $100 per month increase each year). In 2 years, I can moonlight and make an additional $400-500 per month quite easily. In 4 years, my expected salary would be $150,000 - 200,000. I've tried applying for physician loans but they rejected me due to my poor credit history and large debt. Are there unsecured loans that I can take out if I have a creditworthy co-signor? If these damn credit card companies would only reduce the APRs to 12-14% and structure it as graduated payments, I would be sooooooo happy! Any jobs I can do at home on weekends to earn $300-400 per month? Any leads on eBay jobs? LOL I'll try anything...except being a burden to my parents.
Re: Re: My 2 cents So don't be a BURDEN to your parents, but don't be afraid to ask for HELP either. As someone suggested, perhaps they could take out a loan that YOU repay. No burden to them--they're just "loaning" you their credit history. Tell them that you'll not only pay back this loan but that you'll pay them a certain amount of money after you get on your feet and the loan is paid. Maybe a lump sum, maybe you make payments to them every month. I can't believe that it wouldn't make your parents sick to know you have these problems and are afraid to ask for help. Again--don't ask them to GIVE you anything. They'll qualify for the loan, you'll pay it. I think this will really incentivize you to pay back the loan, because you really don't want to hurt them.
Student Loans too !!!!! Physician Compensation Survey - In Practice Three Plus Years Specialty Primary Care Family Pr: Avg:147,516 Low: 118,894 High:197,025 Internl M: Avg:160,318 Low: 117,984 High:205,096 Pediatrics:Avg:149,754 Low: 111,113 High:201,086 Primary Care Surgical OB-GYN: Avg:284,294 Low:184,045 High:350,455 Ophtho: Avg:256,874 Low:161,763 High:417,000 Otolary: Avg:264,878 Low:180,084 High:392,890 Internal Medicine Specialties Endoc:Avg:170,102 Low:123,984 High:221,633 Neuro: Avg:196,563 Low:130,872 High: 252,765 Hem/Onc:Avg:269,298 Low:155,475 High:473,000 Pulmo: Avg:218,978 Low:143,229 High:280,278 Rheumo:Avg:165,218 Low:119,076 High: 218,113 Nephro: Avg:233,824 Low:161,039 High:405,142 Gastro: Avg:282,133 Low:179,000 High:381,340 Cardio: Avg:300,500 Low:186,667 High:434,607 Surgical Specialties General Cardiovas Colon/Rec Neuro Surg Oral& Maxi Orthopedic Surgery Plastic Surgery Urology Vascular Surgery Miscellaneous Specialties Dermatology Psychiatry Hospital Based Anesthesiology Radiology Emergency Medicine Based on over 2978 replies during 2002 Base salary only, no benefits
Student Loans too !!!!! Dear Dr. Stress, Please do not tell me you are not in a repayment plan on your student loans yet???!!!@@### That means it has been less than 9 months since you graduated med school. That is a whole other can of worms. Have you even thought about what those monthly payments will be???? I hate to say this to such a nice poster but when those student loans kick in and you're paying the mins on your credit card debt you will be living in the utility closet of the hospital. Now THAT would be humiliating, embarrassing and would not bode well for a great future in medicine. Also if you think you are going to be making $150,000-$200,000 a year straight out of finishing your training you are living in la-la land. I have listed below the salary survey that is done every year by the Physician's Guild. This is the 2002 survey as the 2003 hasn't come out yet. This survey is the average, low and high salaries of MDs 3+ years into well established practices. I have listed each specialty as I did not know where you are headed but print it out as it will make great conversation among your colleagues in the docs lounge. I personally know that MDs in practice DO NOT talk about how much they make a year. For some reason MDs think that taking the Hippocratic Oath and talking about how much money they make is unrefined for such a high calling as medicine. But they will fill out surveys anonymously (they do bitch among themselves about HMOs though). As you can see the highest numbers are associated with specialities that take a few more years than 4 to complete....more like 6-7 years and with board certification. Plus the high salaries mean analgously a Harvard medical school degree, graduating in the top 10% of your class, training at Mass. General and living in a high income city like Boston or NYC. If you did not go to a top tier med school and you are not training at one of the best teaching hospitals then you will be lucky to make the low end of the salary scale. As you can tell by now I do not talk platitudes. I talk NUMBERS...do the math! I have expended a lot of energy doing the math for you and you still aren't getting it. Your financial affairs are a train wreck waiting to happen. I am hollering as loud as I can for you to STOP before it happens. Why do you think the people here are here???? BECAUSE they are trying to repair their credit...duh! They are trying to get deleted all the negatives from doing what has been suggested here: late pay, don't pay, go to charge offs, go to credit counseling agencies, go to collection agencies, have the debt go to a collection lawyer which will result in judgments all over the place. They are also dealing with collection agencies, original creditors, junk debt buyers, utility companies, lawyers, state taxes Federal taxes, unpaid parking tickets, student loans...yada,yada. So far I have been the only poster that has backed up my advice with the truth as the truth does not lie in some "I believe in paying all my debts haven" but in the numbers. So keep on dreaming that you're going to get your CC debt payments down to $800/month. Keep your head in the ground until you get the notice for $1,500 a month in student loans. And most importantly do not jeopardize your parent's home as you just might need someplace to live when this all comes down on your head. You think you're stressed out now..."fasten your seatbelt as it is definitely going to be a bumpy ride." There is no way you will be able to pay this kind of debt moonlighting. I am not pushing for you to file bk 7 rather I'm trying to explain and illustrate WHY you should bk 7. The only other better alternative I can think of is to come on down to Florida and meet a rich old widow with lots of money that likes young guys with med degrees. I have in the past 2 days given you an education that took me 30 years of education, work experience and life experience to learn. But if you want to jump out the window and break all your bones then don't come cryin' to me when it happens. I am now going to have a glass of wine, hit the books and prepare for my final exams. Good luck in whatever you decide. You now possess all the data in which to make an informed decision. clc ===================================== Physician Compensation Survey - In Practice Three Plus Years Specialty Primary Care Family Pr: Avg:147,516 Low: 118,894 High:197,025 Internl M: Avg:160,318 Low: 117,984 High:205,096 Pediatrics:Avg:149,754 Low: 111,113 High:201,086 Primary Care Surgical OB-GYN: Avg:284,294 Low:184,045 High:350,455 Ophtho: Avg:256,874 Low:161,763 High:417,000 Otolary: Avg:264,878 Low:180,084 High:392,890 Internal Medicine Specialties Endoc:Avg:170,102 Low:123,984 High:221,633 Neuro: Avg:196,563 Low:130,872 High: 252,765 Hem/Onc:Avg:269,298 Low:155,475 High:473,000 Pulmo: Avg:218,978 Low:143,229 High:280,278 Rheumo:Avg:165,218 Low:119,076 High: 218,113 Nephro: Avg:233,824 Low:161,039 High:405,142 Gastro: Avg:282,133 Low:179,000 High:381,340 Cardio: Avg:300,500 Low:186,667 High:434,607 Surgical Specialties General: Avg:261,276 Low:175,314 High:364,279 Cardiovas:Avg:558,719 Low:351,108 High:852,717 Colon/Rec:Avg:291,199 Low:186,000 High:420,175 Neuro Surg:Avg:438,426 Low:279,655 High:713,961 Oral/Maxo:Avg:208,340 Low:157,404 High:352,879 Ortho: Avg:346,224 Low:237,731 High:540,524 Plastic: Avg:306,047 Low:196,711 High:411,500 Urolo: Avg:285,356 Low:180,808 High:375,000 Vascul: Avg:359,339 Low:237,525 High:636,995 Miscellaneous Specialties Dermo: Avg:232,000 Low:168,988 High:407,000 Psych: Avg:160,658 Low:121,000 High:189,499 Hospital Based Anesth; Avg:278,802 Low:219,850 High: 392,960 Radio: Avg:319,380 Low: 225,181 High:429,716 ER Med: Avg:210,830 Low:160,000 High:250,000 Based on over 2978 replies during 2002 Base salary only, no benefits
Student Loans too !!!!! clc, I'll give you credit for one thing: you've done the math. However..... let me now point out a couple of things. About five years ago, the situation my wife and I were in was every bit as bad, relatively speaking, as what Stress is in now. Our debt was more along the lines of $40,000.00 in credit card debt and about $15,000.00 on her student loan. We got 120 day+ lates on ALL of our debts and it was a little over a year before we could even dream of getting our act back together. Creditors were nagging us every day. We were advised by several "experts" that we would wind up declaring bankruptcy. Do you want to hear the rest of this? Here goes: 1. I got a better-paying job. 2. My wife went back to work after our child was able to finally go to a daycare (long story). 3. Between these factors and periodic raises, we've managed to keep it all together. After I was so delinquent with my creditors, guess what? They finally woke up and offered me some assistance to get caught up. Did I declare BK? NO. Did I ever use a credit counseling service? NO. Am I out of the woods? NO, but my cc debt is down much lower and my wife's cc debt is history. The 120-day lates are now a few years behind us. My point is that, regardless of how hopeless things may look, there might be a better alternative to BK if one looks around. I'll assure you that if you had known me in 1999-2000, you would have thought I was crazy to NOT file BK. You had better believe I'm glad I didn't.
Student Loans too !!!!! Struggler, thanks for words of encouragement. clc, I understand what you're saying and I'm just trying to digest all of this. I've come across lots of info here the past couple days so I need to think things through carefully. I don't want to hastily pursue a course of action that I may later regret. I have been out of medical school for almost 2 years. I currently have this year off for personal reasons. With regards to my student loans, I'm not very concerned about them as I've been able to consolidate at a fixed rate of approximately 4.25%. (The lousy economy helped me here!) I won't go into repayment until I've finished residency. My expected monthly payment will be roughly $600. My specialty pays rather well so my previous salary figures are conservative estimates. I'll email you with more details to pique your brains.
Student Loans too !!!!! Struggler, Great story..happy to hear you were successful but you cannot compare your situation with Stress's situation. First he does not have a 9-5 job. Second his "job" is an integral part of his future. Third his "job" entails treating critically ill people. Fourth if he endangers his training by excessive moonlighting it will effect his future a hell of a lot more than his credit report. Fifth he owes over four times the amount you and your wife had. Sixth he has no life partner to help him out. Seventh he has huge expenses ahead of him which he has pointed to a number of times....expenses that he will have to incur in order to be a licensed doctor. Seventh he can't qualify for any loans as he has already tried through his profession's loan people because his credit is no good. Eighth he suffers from depression...he didn't say whether it was chemical or reactive but that was the reason he gave for incurring this amount of debt. Ninth he is suffering extreme stress over his financial situation which could endanger his health thereby affecting his medical career. Tenth his salary increases over the next 4 years are $1,200 a year which means in his fourth year of training he will be making the whopping salary of $40,600 and for that he will work about 60 hours a week at his primary "job". Can you possibly compare your situation to his??? Please explain to me what relevant factor you share with this guy except you both suffered from excessive debt. I don't give a s**t if he bks or he doesn't. It won't effect my life one iota. I am making no $$s giving him my advice. I have no vested interest in his future. Sure bk can be personally embarassing and humiliating but bks are at an all time high so there is a bunch of embarassed people who due to circumstances beyond their control are forced to file. En fin I am sure Stress has ruminated all these things. He posted here because he is "stressed" out. Don't tell him to take an aspirin, go to sleep and call you in the morning. I have given him sound data in order to make a decision. You have given him nothing except platitudes. Now let him make a decision based on facts or one made on platitudes. I only wish him well. clc
My point is.... clc, I'm not trying to push him in either direction. There very well may come a time when BK is his only realistic option. However, the point I'm trying to make is that he shouldn't just dive right into that without at least exploring some more options. Look at it this way; if you're sure that BK is the only way to go for him, then what's the harm in trying some alternatives before taking the plunge? So what if he gets even deeper in debt in the meantime? He's only going to wipe it all out with a BK, right? So what if his credit gets worse? It won't be any worse than having a BK on there, right? So what if he gets lates of 30, 60, 90, 120 days? That's no worse a mark than a BK, right? So what if they come after him legally? He'll just take the protection of a BK, right? Do you see what I mean? Let's assume that you're right and that BK is the only possible option for him. Okay, then, what's the rush? I'm serious. Remember what I suggested about maybe ignoring the largest CC account until they realize that he really does need some help? Well, this sounds like the perfect time to try it. Again, if he's just going to file BK anyway, then what's the harm in trying this? If his other creditors see what's happening on this one account and they decide to pounce, so what? He's going to file BK anyway, right? Does this make sense?
