I agree that it's important for family members to help each other, cheer each other, and offer advice and empathy in defeat. I also think it's important for families to not fear conflict, not avoid painful issues, and to do the hard work of discussing differences head-on. Every healthy family I've ever encountered has played hard but without avoiding responsibility and fought hard but without inflicting intentional trauma. I certainly envy those of you whose families were filled only with goodness and sweetness. I can't remember when this board was that way, though. Someone very bright who I treasure dearly once explained to me her definition of "family," and I'll never forget what she said: Your family are the people who don't just walk away because the situation is tough or because times have changed. A real family sticks together no matter what. The fact that some people here have in fact walked away when the situation was tough or because times and people had changed really underscores a central truth that can't be masked very easily: We really don't have a true family here. Rather, we have a virtual online community, albeit a fairly close-knit one. I don't think making comparisons to family is reality-based. "Family," like "love," is an unreasonably high yardstick for a computer bulletin board to meet. Doc
Actually, the true test of moral integrity is what one does with one's decisions when there is presence of adversity. Some of the greatest people in history are known in history simply because they made decisions of integrity even when circumstances dictated otherwise. A person's character is defined by what he or she would choose to do if no one was looking and there were no consequences to the action. I try (note "try") to live my life in such a way that I hope I'd continue to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances. Right is right - adversity or not, audience or not, benefit or not...
Thanks for the reality check, Doc. This board is the best deal in town because we get a bit of therapy for FREE! Thanks!
Preachin' from the mountain top... thanks Love.... ...hell, I'm motivated by revenge almost as much as I am by the higher score itself....my due diligence in paying my bills now versus 1996 is unchanged...I can honestly say that I was as credit worthy "then" as I am "now... However, my scores have jumped exponentially in those intervening years--partly from an aging credit bureau, true...but more so from knowledge (a lot of which I took, and take--unashamedly--from this board). Unfortunately (in most--but not all cases) one "lives and dies" by the FICO. Now, this bizness of playing by the "rules"? I used to think that way--pay your bills on time, all the time, and they will come (you know what I mean). The only thing playing by the "rules" gets you is a merit badge in morality--or something like that. I've said this before, but I'll repeat it again: PAYING BACK YOUR OBLIGATIONS, EVEN LATE, AND/OR FILING A CH 13 AND PAYING PEOPLE THE MONEY THEY ARE OWED DOES YOU NO FAVORS. Some people here (the board I mean) can attest to the fact that I (and the wife) walked the "moral and ethical high ground" during our time of financial stress; what I didn't know during our walk was that Satan was waiting at the exit; I clearly remember now--held up his hand and said "now that you've paid everybody back and got your bills current, do me a favor--bend over". 'Scuse me, my drink needs freshening. The alchoholic of the family... Cheers, David
Dani This could go on and on, so at this juncture I will move on. My true intent has been accomplished open and frank discussion. You have very conservative veiws which is your right, just want to add more color to the picture, everything is not black and white, there is no such thing as an absolute on any issue. Thank you for your ...er....vigorious particpation.
Actually, the true test of moral integrity is what one does with one's decisions when there is presence of adversity. Some of the greatest people in history are known in history simply because they made decisions of integrity even when circumstances dictated otherwise. A person's character is defined by what he or she would choose to do if no one was looking and there were no consequences to the action. I try (note "try") to live my life in such a way that I hope I'd continue to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances. Marci you make my point to a degree....the presence of adversity does make a huge difference. Whether we like it or not. Take the events of Sept 11, the acts of courage by the firemen , police and others would have been so so at the most. These same acts because of the sheer level of bizarre and terroristic acts , became lionized. Amplified by the tremendous adversity touching millions around the world.
I certainly envy those of you whose families were filled only with goodness and sweetness. I can't remember when this board was that way, though. Doc I can't thank you enough for this one line. I have only been hear 2 months so i can't say, but I did suspect..... I don't think differences in opinion that lead to healthy debate are bad. I met my best friend that way and the woman I am going to ask to marry me. When people are real they do bond that is one thing I have found out in life. Don't ever be afraid to speak your mind for the fear of what someone else will think of you. No matter what you do some people will like you some people will love you it is just one of those quirks of life. Man this has been fun!
Great. Uncle Lester is a child molester... that's ok we still love him. In fact, I think I'll invite him to 3 year old tommy's birthday party with all the neighborhood kids to prove it. (can't resist a little sarcasm) I've always thought family was a little overrated. Genetics have nothing to do with love or like for that matter.
Then we disagree. It is never "so so" to spend your time and energy helping others, regardless of the media context. Their acts of courage were always acts of courage, whether they got killed for it or not. The morality of helping someone less fortunate is not dimmed by obscurity - nor is it glorified by an audience. Moral actions are moral actions, period. And, yeah, they are absolute. Excepting, of course, the absolute that "there is no such thing as an absolute on any issue", which I'm sure you believe absolutely.
Excellent post, marci. I agree 100%. Putting one's life on the line for one's country or in the will to help others is never so-so. Dani
I "absolutely" agree with Marci ! It has often occurred to me that the culture of immediate gratification,and deferred responsibility that is an integral part of our "plastic" economy has gotten us out of the habit of self-sacrifice and moral/ethical immediate liability for our actions and response to other problems.The 9/11 outpouring of giving and outrage shows that not all of our better instincts are completely submerged.(The amount of defaulted cc debt for donations not withstanding)
What's happening to me? With the exception of doodyhead's rather asinine example, I agree with everything that's been said lately! Am I turning into an agreeable person at this advanced age? Lord, someone, please bring me some seltzer water! Doc
Marci I am loving this! as for the so so comment I correctly figured you would leap on it. fact everyday people die, firemen and police officers die every year, except for the immediate family and the areas that they live in most of us don't really care. Hence the so so what made the deaths of the fireman and police officers on Sept 11 more news worthy than the the deaths of public servants before then? The sheer magnitude! going forward the greater the adversity, the greater the recognition, rewards, pride,etc. This is the difference I speak of choices made without dire consquences are not the same as choices made when there are no heavy reprecussions on the line. All life is precious, however we live in s soceity that pays lips service to that idea, the deeds that should go along with what is said are often lacking, Pick up your local newspaper someone die last night and for the most part it goes unobserved by most. Doc it happens.....LOL
I'm loving this, too. Thank you for replying to me. Here's another fact. As a matter of fact, if I may, here's truth. The beauty of an absolute morality is that the value of these peoples' sacrifices is not cheapened because no one knows about them or, worse, because no one cares. The moral goodness of what EMTs, police officers, and fire-fighters do every day is not muted because CNN doesn't take interest. Our lives and our choices are worth way more than that. Let's put this discussion in another context. Is your moral claim to demanding fairness and legal integrity from creditors and CRAs any less valid because Denise Richardson got public exposure and you didn't? Of course not. But that is exactly what I hear you saying wrt to the moral acts of people who die in the line of duty but don't get put on TV; that's it's all ultimately relative to what society calls important. I respectfully disagree. Of course, I can say that our choices are worth more than what society may dictate at any given time for two reasons: Frist, I believe that this approach makes our world "make sense" more so than another approach out there - and, second, I believe that regardless of what CNN deems newsworthy/important, there is - in fact - Someone who does see it all and Who does - in fact - care, and more importantly, Who is in a position to do something about it. And in case the irony of my earlier reply to your statement that "there is no such thing as an absolute on any issue" was lost in the discussion, I replied in the way I did just to demonstrate how inconsistent your comment is and how easily it invalidates itself. Yeah, I believe that absolutely, too. I appreciate your comments and wish you well,
