EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by J. Vick 71, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    I just pulled a Experian FICO score and it was a 611. I have not seen that low of a FICO score in almost 1.5 years on my FICO score reports. Here is the situation.

    Filed BK(7) 2 years ago. Opened 9 positive accounts since the Bankruptcy. Closed 2 of the positive accounts. Balances total around $130 on all of my accounts. My open credit lines are around $7500. I have never been late since the BK(7). TU and EQ are close to 700 right now. I have disputed many items over time and have had pretty good success. THIS MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!

    I read my Experian report from CreditExpert and from MYFICO frontwards and backwards several times. Pulled both today. I have No balances or late updates from my accounts before the Bankruptcy. I also have several older positive credit accounts before the bankruptcy that are still listed on EXP.

    What is EXP doing to the reports lately?

    Maybe it is this, When items are disputed they are either deleted or updated. EXP does a horrible job reporting date of status, date opened, and also reported date. EXP doesn't really show date of last activity either. Not to mention that they really don't verify everything either but thats another subject.

    Is this possible with EXP?

    When a item is updated and verified the account is being reported as if the late activity just happened?
    Here is a personal example,

    I have an account that went bad in early 1997 and have not made a payment on it since then. I filed BK(7) on it in 2001. It has been reported as a charge off always since the BK(7). The account is due to fall off in early 2004 because of the 7 year deal. I have had a really hard time getting this one account to fall off of the EXP report. I don't advise this but I finally got sick of it and disputed it as Discharged in Bankruptcy. I figure the acount would fall off within 6 months that way or it would be updated to say included in Bankruptcy or the account would be deleted at that time. The account has come back updated and verified TWICE no changes, charge off. The creditor says it was sold to collections so they won't change the past information. Because it was a charge off before the bankruptcy.

    I believe now that Experian updates these accounts as checked and verified and counts it as a late as of this month. I don't have this problem with Equifax or TransUnion. They count the lates when they actually happen or at least what they are told. EQ and TU do not bring the late current but EXP does.

    I read my EXP report over and over again and only now have a FICO score of 611. There is no other explanation as to why a score would drop this low in this situation. I have done a great job establishing new credit since a BK(7) and have worked SO hard bringing up FICO scores to get a mortgage.

    How else can one explain that BIG of a drop after this situation? I have seen FICO scores after a BK(7) on other reports close to this with no positive accounts open that are a mess. I have cleaned up and a 611 after 2 years? EXP used to be high 600's before the last 2 rounds of disputes.

    I have no lates listed from the past 24 month history on the EXP report. I checked many times.

    Any ideas or help from someone who knows how to handle things would be great!

    I believe this is mostly a EXP problem with how they report and enter this but how do you explain that to a EXP employee??

    Also the account is listed the last 24 months OK/UNKOWN.

    Any ideas????????

    GEORGE Well-Known Member

  3. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member


    GEORGE....was that an answer? I don't get it...

    lol...do you get your answers by shaking a "magic eightball"?

    SnakeMan: George, what do I do?

    GEORGE: ...concentrate and try again!

    lol....sorry, couldn't help myself.

    If through your disputes you have had items fall off, that will lower your score too. Even if a item is negative, it shows history, and age. Removing negatives items drops your score temporarily in some cases.
  4. Melissap1

    Melissap1 Well-Known Member

    RNG= Random Number Generator, unknown number changes without any apparent changes

    George created the acronym.

    UYGF= Unless Your George Factor, this one explains why people get offers that George can't.
  5. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    This is not RNG. If I went to a mortgage broker in a few months what do I explain RNG? No, that is not going to fly. Why would TU and EQ be fine with the same results?

    It is a EXP thing, but what can be done?

    EXP keys these things in different to kill a FICO score.

    I am convinced there is a way to get EXP to change it the way it should be but I don't see it on the report.

    Any ideas?
  6. ALF

    ALF Well-Known Member

    As far as a mortgage, they take the middle score, so that if you have two reports that are around 700, you should have no problems....

  7. LKH

    LKH Well-Known Member

    J.Vick 71,

    I have exactly the same situation as you. My Exp were in the low 720's along with Efx and TU. For some unknown reason, my Exp score tanked. No derogs. All info reported on Exp is the same as the others. This just recently happened maybe 5 weeks ago.

    Flyingifr posted something a couple weeks ago quoting someone from Fair Isaac saying Exp doesn't use a true fico. That could possibly explain it. Here is the post:


    FICO info from the Horse's Mouth

    Flyingifr | 794 posts since Nov 2002 | 09.24.2003 @ 14:50

    Guess I'm not going to sue MyFico - they refunded my money. And I was all set for a good court battle over less than $13. :(

    I just got off the phone with Barry Paperno at Fair Isaac (Yes, GEORGE, the originators of the RNG). First, he apologized that I had such difficulty getting a mailing address for FICO and agreed that, yes, it was stupid to try to conceal something that is public record.

    In our conversation it came out that he was one of the people who helped derive the algorithm that generates the FICO score. I asked him some direct questions that are concerns of many posters on this board. Here are the questions and his answers:

    1: Does the algorithm incorporate any non-credit information, such as zip code, age, etc... that would be used to score people into bands on "people like you..."? Answer - absolutely not. The algorithm uses nothing but the credit file as it stands at that moment of time.

    2: How can the addition of a derog trade line cost 40 points and its deletion two months later, with no other changes in the credit file (no new accounts - no inquiries - only small decreases in mounts owed, no new lines opened or closed - only yield a refund of 16 points (this happened to me). ANSWER: The true FICO algorith wouldn't respond like that. Fxperian does not use dthe true FICO algorith, EFX and TU do.

    3: What are the possible effects of the inclusion of a single new 30-day late line? ANSWER: It depends on the rest of your file. If, on one hand, you have a long credit history without prior problems, the new line would have a very small impacy. On the other extreme, of you already have a recent BK and lot sof other recent derogs, taht one line can cost up to 100 points.

    I suggested he join this board and post occasionally. Whether you believe him or not is up to you, but I think he has something valuable to add. In any event, it would be fun to see him and GEORGE go head-to-head.
  8. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    Thanks LKH, I remember a few months ago when you could finally access FICO from myfico.com on experian finally. The Experian FICO was right in line with everything else. I fully understand accounts dropping off with the age and deletions also. But these FICO scores from Experian lately make no sense at all. Here is what I think happened.

    Experian changed how we see are reports around 6-8 weeks ago. The information was somehow also changed. The latest dates on disputed and verified items somehow turned up as current information. Also the DOLA does not really show accurate on any items that we see anymore. Not to mention the date of status or when the account was opened.

    On my Experian report the last 24 months I have ZERO lates and have looked at it up and down several times. But the FICO score somehow tanked.

    I will be on the phone with as many EXP employees as possible along with Fair Isacc on Monday to figure out how and why this happened. The reports I think were keyed in WRONG on stuff we don't see.

    This is completely unacceptable!

    If I find out anything that is a fact I'll let others know that might also have this B.S problem.

    Anyone else have this problem lately?

    Thanx again LKH!
  9. iambroke

    iambroke Well-Known Member

    Hmm...that is so weird.

    My experian scores tanked too about 5 weeks ago.
    Went from 650 to 589 for no apparant reason. I have NO derogs, nothing bad, inquries are 2, etc...
    I haven't applied for credit, got new credit, no changes whatsoever. In fact I've paid off 3 CC's in that timeframe.

    So what gives? My TU and EQ scores never dropped. In fact they are rising.
  10. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    O.K, I had time to figure this out, and also made a couple of phone calls earlier. If this is in your credit report watch out. EXP is full of this lately

    The time since your most recent past due payment is too recent or UNKNOWN.

    In rare cases(in other words alot of us here), evidence of a past missed payment on a credit account is present on the credit report, BUT THE DATE OF THE LATE PAYMENT CANNOT BE DETERMINED EXACTLY. An "UNDATEABLE" credit account deliquency on a credit report still represents GREATER risk than never having missed a payment at all, and so it will affect the score.

    The above was copied, but explained as a reason.

    Each item in your Experian credit report has a 24 month history breakdown month by month when you pull Experian through MyFico.

    Sept 2003 OK/UNKNOWN
    Aug 2003 OK/UNKNOWN
    July 2003 OK/UNKNOWN

    All the way to Sept 2001 OK/UNKNOWN

    The account probably has a UNKNOWN thrown in there. The more recent the UNKNOWN is the more of an impact it will have on your score.

    Experian is full of UNKNOWN!!!!!!!!

    I would advise to go through each individual account and find out if it is really OK or UNKNOWN each month. Experian is by far the worst at not KNOWING right now and it shows up in our FICO scores.

    After 24 months have fun with the UNKNOWN!

    A Sept 2003 UNKNOWN is more painful because it is recent. And of course as the months go by the impact on the FICO score goes away slowly with time.

    Does this make sense? UNDATEABLE or UNKNOWN

    Experian screws up and we pay. I guess whats new?

    Does this help?
  11. LKH

    LKH Well-Known Member

    I'm not quite sure I follow, but if there is a statement saying The time since your most recent past due payment is too recent or UNKNOWN, and it is showing unknown on any individual account, I would immediately dispute it as inaccurate, incomplete and unverifiiable info and it must be removed.
  12. GEORGE

    GEORGE Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    There is no way I could have been LATE on that UNKNOWN DATE...I didn't use the card on that UNKNOWN DATE or 30 days before or 30 days after...
  13. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    Equifax, Transunion, and Experian all use TRUE FICO

    The 3 CRA's all score things differently though.
    EX: Experian/Fair Isacc

    Each individual account on all 3 CRA's should really be checked out fully as to how they are reported and the effect it has on your report. Experian does a horrible job compared to the other 2 on correct dates and how they are calculated. Mistakes are keyed in wrong as to what we really see also. The 3 CRA's have not made any changes as to how they score reports. Fair Isacc basicly calculates what is provided at a snapshot from the CRA. The CRA grades how each individual account has a impact on your report. Each CRA grades these changes differently. Fair Isacc calculates the entire report when it is pulled. Also each CRA grades inquirys different from the other 2. If you added up every inquiry from all 3 CRA's on everyone who pulls. One CRA will have the most inquirys and one CRA will have the least. That is why inquirys are graded different from the big 3.
    Everyone knows that FICO only calculates inquirys from the last 12 months though.
    If you had the EXACT information on ALL 3 reports the FICO score would most likely be different on all 3 reports. That is because the CRA grades each account, situation, age, and etc. different. Fair Isacc just adds it all up at a snapshot and provides these scores to us.

    Fair Isacc also provides us with the FICO score simulator, only on EQ and TU though. When you pay $12.95 all you get is your report, and what Fair Isacc calculates on the entire report which is already graded by the CRA. Fair Isacc just adds the entire report up and provides us with the score and simulator. But Fair Isacc changes these things a little bit. One example would be inquriys are only scored from the last 12 months. Plus the other little secrets we are never told. Fair Isacc came up with the 300-850 range and gives us a score. Fair Isacc also tells us how are score compares to others and the results they have from years of research on the odds of us going bad within 2 years. The CRA's have never provided these results on how we will do, they had no reason to.

    The CRA's are to blame for how they each grade each individual account and situation. Not Fair Isacc. I think most of us learned how to manipulate the EQ and TU FICO scores. I would guess EQ and TU grade the individual accounts and age alot different than EXP. Also EXP provides us different information, DOLA, status, etc. Compare the EXP lines of information we see as to what EQ and TU reads. The information is misleading and not scored right.
    EXP does use true FICO but they grade the reports different. EXP was the last one to give us FICO and we still cannot use the simulator.

    Me and Flyingifr have called Fair Isacc and have asked many questions. I hope some trusted VETS from this site could also call Fair Isacc. Depending on who you talk to, just like at a CRA, they will tell you what they know or what each individual is willing to tell us. Some know more, some know less.

    Call and ask its free! But you have to talk to someone that knows what they are saying. Just like at a CRA, it takes time and luck.

    Has anyone else spent over $1000 on these FICO scores like I have since 2002? Will this ever be figured out? CALL Fair Isacc!

    Anything else would be great!
  14. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    100% correct. Dispute in progress LKH

    On the FICO report from EXP the account is listed as
    OK/Unknown under the 24 month history, every month.

    OK/Unknown, How can EXP report it that way when the 2 are completely different on a month by month breakdown over the last 2 years?

    Was it OK or unknown? It doesn't show.

    When I talked to Fair Isacc today they said unknown can go back 7 years and affect the FICO score.

    I also asked why Fair Isacc why someone with perfect history would also see such a score change. The only explanation was obvious. EXP scores inquirys and balances and time involved in those differently. EXP probably freaks out a little more on these than EQ or TU. Fair Isacc justs adds together what is already scored by the individual CRA. And then Fair Isacc tweaks it a little bit to compare with the years of research that fits how they put people in different credit catagorys. (score)

    I posted this once before but this might have also happened. Your total outstanding balances are XXX than average for your CREDIT CATEGORY. People with higher scores can handle better outstanding balances compared to the credit lines.
    A change in total outstanding balances might throw someone into a different CREDIT CATEGORY. It's a 2 for 1 negative impact. Higher balances drive the score down and possibly your credit category. And of course inquirys and etc.
  15. GEORGE

    GEORGE Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    "IF" you dispute UNKNOWN---THEY MAY COME BACK WITH FRIVOLOUS like they did for me!!!


  16. cinderella

    cinderella Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    I have lates on my EQ report from an account opened almost seven years ago. It is for a closed car account.

    The dates of the lates are not listed and it shows the same stuff about UNKNOWN late pays. This is also listed as one of the reasons for not having a higher score for EQ FICO.

    I am toooooooooo scared to dispute this on my EQ. I could lose the account forever. It is my only baddie on EQ but it is also one of my oldest accounts. In my experience, EQ deletes the WHOLE account if creditor doesn't respond.
  17. GEORGE

    GEORGE Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???


    You should be able delete the UNKNOWN LATE without contacting anyone...because UNKNOWN DATE FOR A 30 DAY LATE IS 100% INACCURATE.
  18. J. Vick 71

    J. Vick 71 Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    Same here EXP has an old car loan perfect. TU and EQ have the same reported late or missing from 1998. An old car loan would also throw off the credit mix not to mention the age if it was deleted. Tough decision isn't it?
  19. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    Or my fav. The UNKNOWN date is July 4th, 1776. Make them prove otherwise.

  20. cinderella

    cinderella Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: EXP I am FICO score shocked, WTF???

    No way, I am not touching it. Last year I accidentally disputed a WRONG car account with EXP online. I had two accounts listed right next to each other for the same car, one was a lease with perfect payment history and the second was the purchase account account for same car.

    I accidentally disputed the lease with perfect payment history as NEVER LATE. After I submitted the dispute online, I realized what I did and called EXP telling them I made a mistake and disputed the wrong account. THEY TOLD ME....."DON'T WORRY, IF YOU WERE NEVER LATE, AND DISPUTED NEVER LATE, OUR SYSTEM WILL IGNORE YOUR DISPUTE." The following day, I air mailed (next day) my problem to the EVIL EXP, requesting they ignore my dispute.

    Guess what happened at the end of the thirty day dispute???? Yeah, those weasles deleted the whole account because I accidentally disputed never late on an account that was reported as never late. Of course, when I called EXP up and explained I had previously called them and immediately WROTE them a letter, they said...."TOO BAD, YOUR ACCOUNT HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY DELETED." I swear, the supervisor sounded giddy as she was explaining they would not reisnsert the account.

    I paid off a car loan last year that still reports a balance of $6k on it. The loan has a perfect payment history but I am not even going to dispute the balance.....way too risky.

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