Yes I watch the news and keep up with current events -- you want to discuss politics too? "Probably 99%..." that's a really big assumption, generalization and flat-out guess. "...are white or jewish..." Now that pisses me off, HOW is it that you determine who is jewish and who is not jewish? Last I noticed, no one was walking around with stars of david on their clothes. You fail to mention that those scum "...from shareholders and employees..." THOSE people are US right, you and me, middle-class, white black brown and yellow. "...If they were black they would be executed..." I think you are guessing at that too. I'm sorry your wife is discriminated against, this is a country of all colors and faiths. What I find amazing is, someone find me a pure race or ethnic group anymore -- they are few and far between. We are all a melding pot and a mix, yep, a nation of mutts! WHO are the scumbags, that's who we need to be focusing on. I've known scum of all races and religions. No one fits in a nice, neat and square box. Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination Actually I rather believe the same as Sassy. Put it this way. I am a white female. Grew up in poverty with a single mother. Never had any contact with my father. My mother worked as a houskeeper for years. I went to an inner city school with 89% black students. My neighbourhood had about the same ratio. I worked hard in high school. Damned hard. Most of the kids in my neighborhood were having children out of wedlock-- and even if wedlock is a nonissue... most of these girls and boys were ages 14-18. I remember one girl in my 8th grade class who was pregnant with her third child. I went to school where I was robbed on several occassions and even had my hair set on fire by a student who had been expelled several times. I watched two girls being stabbed in the head one day in school. I have also had classmates pulled out of class for murder charges during the school day. I watched guns being pulled off kids in high school and this was back in the early nineties. I saw during the OJ Simpson verdict teachers being pushed out of the classroom and students in "joy" throwing chairs out of the glass windows two stories up. I believe even though I may not have lived in an inner city in someplace as large as Chicago or LA, I still had my fair share of growing up in a hard, impoverished, and scary inner city. I received many scholarships to go to one of the best public universities in this country. The first public university in this country. My mother went into debt to send me one year in highschool over seas as a foreign exhange student. Out of 220 graduating high school seniors, I was ranked 6th. Now, this same university is very particular about many students. One of my classmates, a white male, who was very active, very bright, and worked very hard in high school was ranked 14th out of 220. He was put on a wait list to this university. As time drew near for the end of our senior year he received a "sorry but no thanks" letter from this university. On the other hand, a minority female from my high school who never participated in extra curricular activities, who lived in a better neighbourhood than even me, and had never taken any honors courses at my high school (i believe her ranking was 67th in my high school) was admitted with a scholarship even more need based and academically worthy than myself. I have since worked at this same university within our admissions department and also during the summer when there are special programs for certain minority students to help teach them remedial subjects so they can have a better chance during the regular school years here at this particular university. The university is saying that they are trying to give missed opportunities to these students-- however at the sametime there are many students from other minority groups as well as caucasians who are bypassed for spaces within this university so that some of these other students who did have opportunities but did not embrace them still get into one of the best schools in the country. I have heard it all. Technically and statistically even I should have been pregnant and a high school drop out. My family and upbringing did not differ so much from some of my minority classmates; however, I worked hard for my achievements and to this day I find it very insulting that someone can insinuate to me that I should have a "boost up" since I am a female and may not be as "qualified" as a white male. People make choices everyday and even certain children in the worst circumstances can make choices even if everyone around them is going to jail, not able to hold jobs, do not study. There is something within oneself. Just recently in my job, there was a promotion given to an internal employee who is so grossly incompetent for the position but was given the position based on race (and this was told by one of the same race supervisors in a supposed confidential discussion within our hr department). It was said it was a means in order to even out the positions within our department to be more racially and gender neutral. Several other people both males and females and of varying races who were by far more qualified were passed up for the job based on this simple fact. Now you try to tell these passed up candidates, passed up high school graduates that reverse discrimination does not exist. At the same time I have known many successful black students growing in the same environment (and even worse environments) than myself fight their way to the top and deserve everything that has come along to them. I have a friend who grew up in the most dangerous gang ridden neighborhoods in Minneapolis, put herself through college, and has a very successful political and business career (much like a similar person of Clarence Thomas). In other words (and no I am not a racist-- I have friends of every color, every sexual orientation, every financial background, every religion), I believe we are relying too much on cop outs. People should take responsibilities for themselves. Some people will succeed because of an inner drive even against all odds. Some people will cave into other pressures within any environment. Some people will feel they have entitlements based on their sex, race, or religion. And then some people will say.. you know life is not easy for anyone and they will pick themselves up again and again and keep striving. Truthfully when it comes down to it I am glad I am neither a white male nor a black male. I personally think both suffer types of discrimination even though one is usually seen as occuring and the other we so often do turn our backs on because of the non-politically correctness of it. Just my thoughts...
Re: Reverse Discrimination Okay, i thought we were all singing Kumbaya, holding hands, and roasting marshmallows by the fire. But now i'm taking my kid gloves off. I have compassion for anyone who been discriminated against. Which is EVERYONE, aside the aforementioned 1%. But honestly, i'm sick and tired of anyone bitching about the unfair shakes in life. Guess what, everyone goes them. that's what life is about. Now let's get real and talk about the tens of thousands of babies that are currently being used as human shields in African civil wars. Yes, babies. Let's talk about women in third world countries who go to see a "western" doctor for a normal checkup and end up getting their tubes tied without their consent. Let's talk about the billions, yes billions of people starving all over the world, while our govt. pays our farmers to NOT grow food, in order to keep prices up. Let's talk about 1 of 2 children who die before the age of 7 in third world countries because of lack of food, shelter, medical attention, ignorance, etc. Let's get a grip on what's really going on in this world. If you are waiting for life to be fair, you will be waiting for ever. if instead, you make the best of yourself, and spread love, kindness, and compassion, because you know, that every human being goes through the same crap in their lives and that that is only thing that eventually solves every problem, then you'll be too busy helping others to complain about all the unjustices of the world. Humblemarc OT- Holla at Kbanger! (here's a solioquy) I like that guys' style. Now, i'm going back to my s'mores and singing "Moody Blues" songs.
Re: Reverse Discrimination I'm still swaying, marc! I think lucky summed it up for me: In other words (and no I am not a racist-- I have friends of every color, every sexual orientation, every financial background, every religion), I believe we are relying too much on cop outs. People should take responsibilities for themselves. Some people will succeed because of an inner drive even against all odds. Some people will cave into other pressures within any environment. Some people will feel they have entitlements based on their sex, race, or religion. And then some people will say.. you know life is not easy for anyone and they will pick themselves up again and again and keep striving. And add to your list please: female circumcisions, beheadings and beheading nuns in particular, the mutilation by machete in Africa for diamonds, the chinese can't use google, forced prostitution, the extinction of the african people via aids, the EXISTING slavery trade in africa, excessive CEO salaries with bonuses that are really a perk upon firing! We have plenty of blessings to count! Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination This thread is getting out of hand, and I apologize for my role in that. To try to get it a little more on topic, here is an interesting situation: I was recently turned down for a GM/Household Bank card. There were two reasons given: 1) Too many inquiries. OK, fair enough; I had something like 6 inqs at the time. 2) Dwelling type. Here's where it gets interesting. I live in an apartment by choice; my income and credit rating are good enough so that I could buy a house if I chose, but houses are terrible investments. Now, a far higher percentage of minorities live in apartments/rent than whites. So is this an example of discrimination? It could be. Why should Household care if I live in an apartment or not? My credit history is my credit history; my scores are my scores. But by adding a term for "dwelling type" to their risk assessment formula, Household could be guilty of racism, because it represents defacto discrimination against minorities. I'm not saying it is racism, mind you, I'm just giving an example of how these suits work, and how complicated they can be. "Dwelling type" isn't a part of the FICO formula; why should it be a part of Household's? It isn't necessarily "playing the race card" to file a suit under these circumstances, although such suits have had rough going lately, and I think this one, because of Rains or Waters or whatever his name is, and an increasingly conservative judiciary, is going to be tough to win. But like everything else having to do with race, there's more here than meets the eye.
Re: Reverse Discrimination yea, i was goin' to add all those things, but i didn't want to sound too preachy ;-). I know you get it, Sassy. Unfortunately, people like you are few and far between. Luckily, we have a large percentage of people like you on this board. That's why i love Creditnet. humblemarc
Re: Reverse Discrimination actually bunter, one of the reasons, lenders like to see you own your own house, is because it less likely for you to keep up and leave, sticking them with a large charge-off, plus it extremly easy to attach a judgement to real assets, so they will eventually see their money, when you try and sell your home. That's why you can't get a FHA without paying off your chargeoffs and collections. The govt. doesn't want any clouds over the title in case you default. humblemarc
Re: Reverse Discrimination Hiya Bunter, I don't know that it's out of hand, however, I was pondering why I was feeling so passionate about it. I hope I didn't offend you earlier, I was trying to understand your position and experiences as they differ from mine. Please accept my apology if I did so. Ok, done with passionate postings, except the swaying with marc! DWELLING TYPE as a denial, are you kidding me! Did you ask what the dwelling standards for qualification were? I see how you could associate that to color in the manner that you have described; however, why would that not go to a further assumption beyond race to include that more single people live in apartments than in houses? Or that, more people living in apartments tend to move more often than those in houses? Or that, more younger people live in apartments than older people? Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination Guys, Gals PLEASE I Beg you all not to start this RACE war... ITs one thing to have to deal with trolls everyonce in a while but you are all good people and fighting about race and "using the race card" ectect is an area in my humble opinion we shouldn't touch. I truely honestly just want us all to get along only because we can't solve the problems of racism here. Like I said I love you all ---so--- if you are to continue in this topic at least be nice and civil towards eachother... Arigato, Cibo
Re: Dwelling types Marc--- right on. Actually during my second car loan with my local credit union my loan officer and I spoke about the whole dwelling type and how it figures into the credit approval process. I have lived in an apartment for the past-- hmmm... six years. It has been the same apartment for the past six years as well. My loan office told me basically about the samething that Marc was explaining in his post. Basically a mortgage and a home is a true asset. You default on a loan or what have you and they can put a lien or judgement against your property. They can recover something. An apartment dweller who does not own their apartment can pick up and leave without a problem. In my area (within the a radius of 100 miles) we have at the very least--- eight universities (I say at least 8 because there are some smaller colleges, junior colleges, and well though of community/technical colleges that I am unable to count off hand). With this population, most people in these areas are living in apartment homes year round. Most of these people are students, young adults, single people of all race and gender types. I can definitely see why a lender would look at dwelling types since I know especially in my area people move around constantly. It is rare for someone to even stay at the same apartment for over a year.
Racism is a little off of the subject, but I would like to add a few things. Last November, I did a research paper on pay inequities. Racism exists everywhere! But not just racism, sexual discrimination is right there too. In every job market out there, white males made more money than anyone else. For jobs that were prodominately male, the pay scale went down as women began to saturate that particular job sect. Like Teachers, nurses, secretaries, even the engineering field (although in a different manner). Here is a study that I came across while doing my research: a department with 2 males and 2 females. The department is expanding and is going to hire one more employee. Everyone within that department did not want the firm to hire a female. Want to know why? Because female saturated job sects recieve lower pay! The white man may have a harder time getting ahead these days because he isn't the only one out there for the job. He now has competition. My college advisor is a black woman. She is extremely intelligent and a wonderful source of guidance for me. I don't know what I would do without her. Also, I am a poor white/american indian female. A few years ago when I was in dire straights, guess who helped me out? Black women. They knew the most about the system and how to get what one needed to take care of one's family. These people(women) were genuinely concerned and helped me. I will never forget that. Just had to say a few things.
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes Actually just released from the Census Bureau the highest average family income does not come from caucasian families, but Pacific Asian and Asian Indian families. Caucasions were next followed by Latino/Hispanic families and lastly by African American families. Women of course still made less money than men, but the gap did close this year.
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes Abraham Lincoln: "You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn. You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." Author unknown "To be born a free man is an accident; to live a free man is a responsibility; to die a free man is an obligation."
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/resources/side/results.html http://fic.wharton.upenn.edu/fic/lacourpaper.pdf http://www.law.emory.edu/ELJ/volumes/spg98/mahoney.html http://www.ncpa.org/pd/law/lawdefg.html http://www.phil.frb.org/cca/capubs/cascade39.pdf and the list goes on.
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes "That system, says the suit, has a 'disparate impact' on minority applicants and treats them less favorably than white applicants." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2918-2002Sep25.html
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes thanks for links, Greg. A couple of points--I was watching a comedian tonight joking about the ultimate game show prize for a black contestant would be "good credit" or using an Asian's credit report as their own. Greg's link's show this to be true. This is often a joke in the Black community. Even Oprah jokes about shopping, and praying the her "gold" card goes through. in reference to the Abe Lincoln post, During the Civil War, before signing the Emancipation, Lincoln met with all the great Black leaders of the time to discuss what he was doing. In his great wisdom, he told them that Black people would never be accepted and equal in America, always discrimated against; that he would gladly set up a new nation in Africa (similar to Liberia) where former African slaves in America could live without always having to fight the majority. Some might say, Lincoln was just trying to placate the South or some other ulterior motive, but i believe Lincoln saw beyond the immediate future. If you look in any country where there is a majority and a large minority, whoever is in power discriminates against the other group. Unfortunately, it easy for people to blame the "others" for why they aren't getting the jobs, opprotunity, etc. that they have been denied. I can't tell you how many times i have heard lower class whites and blacks, blaming Mexican immigrants for taking their jobs. The real point is that discrimination has now become Socio-economic and extremely difficult to pin down. That's how the powers that be want it. More "white" people are affected by this for no other reason than they make up a majority of the population, even tho' it's a smaller total percentage. Unless you are living off the interest of the interest of your money in the bank, in some way you are being discriminated against. At least, with a clean credit report, one has a better chance of truly living the "American" dream and creating a financially-sound future. humblemarc
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes Since it seems my example with Household isn't entirely getting across, and since GFisher has been exacting enough to bring up the correct legal term, I'll give an example of "disparate impact" and how it relates to racism/discrimination. Let's suppose that a business, for no practical reason, decides to hire only people with a full head of hair. This would potentially represent defacto discrimination against two classes of people: men, who go bald much more often than women, and older men, who go bald more often than younger men. It doesn't matter if the business intended to discriminate or not; their hiring practices have a disparate impact on older men, and could therefore be considered discriminatory. One could conceivably make a similar case with the ironically named Household and their love of homeowners. I'm not familiar with the suit against FNM, but I'm assuming it's along these same lines. Sassy, what I meant when I said the thread was getting out of hand was that it was veering completely off topic. Everyone's been civil enough; it's just that this discussion was going in a direction other than what the board is intended for, that's all.
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes Of course, it's disciminatory against non-homeowners. Owning real estate is what our country is based on. It's one of the principle reasons the country was founded. Ever see those late night T.V. shows about real estate investing? There's some truth to those. All rich people either started in real estate or own tons of it now. All the tax laws in America favor the real estate owner, even above the small business owner. That's what i do for a living, and i recommend to anyone who will listen to buy at least one rental property as a supplement to their retirement fund. Or at least invest in some other real estate related investment. It returns the greatest returns at the least risk. But, yes, it does indirectly (or maybe intentionally) discriminates against Blacks, but other groups too. It just so happens that a larger percentage of blacks have poor credit or don't have enough saved money to put a downpayment on house. humblemarc
Re: Highest Family Median Incomes To all, I wrote the response below for another thread and after reading this one I decided to bring it to this intelligent and lively discussion. All of the posts here have been thoughtful and respectful for the most part...and I humbly present my thoughts and hope it doesn't bring the discussion down. =================================== WOW what a great discussin...so great I couldn't resist adding my anecdotal knowledge here so bear with me if I bore you. As a former corporate banker I am very aware of how every facet of credit providing and banking access is still discriminatory but now they have the veneer of "compliance" to gloss it right over. I worked for a large bank in NYC and we merged with another large bank...well then started the meetings regarding which branches in the city should be and could be closed. That's when the word "redlining" popped up. This basically means you have to tiptoe around low income folks as it pertains to banking and housing access. Now in my small little brain I could not see the difference in these "glossed" over compliance discussions and out and out discrimination. I mean when we are compelled by law to treat potential "redlining" people differently it is a form of discrimination. A better analogy...when I started out in my career (very young and dumb I might add) the CEO of this Fortune 500 corporation very generously addressed his new recruits. Somewhere near the end of his remarks he mentioned opportunities were there for everyone as he had 2 female sr. execs and 1 wheelchair bound sr. exec.. In my naivete (and complete stupidity) I raised my hand and asked this question "wouldn't it be even more impressive if you could not name the number of females and other under represented minorities as they would be too numerous to remember?" Well of course my new boss fell off his chair and the CEO was struck speechless...and a few weeks later I had my resume updated and was snowing the sidewalks of Chicago with them...lol. So no matter what system is put into place it will be ultimately be discriminatory to those excluded minorities. There is a large segment of our population that probably thinks fico is a great name for a dog from the pound. So while we white-anglo-saxon-protestant-catholic-jews bitch and moan about the inefficiencies of the credit scoring business there is an equal population that wouldn't even dream of obtaining an Orchard Bank card much less and AMEX green. ==================================== The issues of race discrimination, reverse discrimination and inequities in all our financial sytems are complex and convoluted. I unfortuantely don't have access to lexis or westlaw or else I would be able to obtain the pleadings in this case...but I am sure that "redlining" has to be in there somewhere. Is this a color issue...yes and no...while there are waspcs (white anglo saxon protestant catholics) living in these so called "redline" areas there are predominantly inhabited by under represented minorities. While my background is wasp privileged I have seen for myself the out and out discrimination against the URMs and feel compelled when confronted with a "reverse" discrimination complaint to respond that the blacks in this country suffered years of repression and denial of opportunities and should definitely be given opportunities that have been handed to their caucasian counterparts on a silver platter. I would also like to add that every type of standardized test in this country from the ssat,sat,gmat,gre and lsat is geared toward the white middle class and their experiences and opportunities in life that are basically denied to kids in the inner city. So, sassy, while I hold you in high regard as one of the brightest and best researchers on this site I have to say that your son might be facing some obstacles in getting his foot in the door...but nothing that come even close to the struggle that the "redline" population has endured. I many times ask myself "what can I do" to resolve the "disparate" population. My life decision was to go to law school and upon graduating work in the public service area in order to give back to those less fortunate than myself. It is in this way I can make a strong statement and hopefully aid people who otherwise would have no access to the legal system. Thanks all for a very compelling and interesting discussion. This level of discussion mazkes me proud to be included in the CN group. clc
