Re: Reverse Discrimination Take a peek at this, marc! http://cluster2.claritas.com/YAWYL/Default.wjsp?System=WL
Re: Reverse Discrimination Greg - thank you for posting the relevant websites. Bunter - beautiful!!! Clc - very well said! Breeze - -that is exactly the website I was thinking of while reading this thread. If I'm not mistaken, certain lending companies use this site (or others like it) to determine which demographic will get mailings for lending programs/opportunities. According to where I live, I'm supposed to read Ebony Magazine, listen to urban rap, and eat Kentucky Fried Chicken. Oh, and I'm supposed have 5 children with no husband. Instead... I read Dostoevsky and Francis Shaeffer, listen to Mozart and Bill Evans, eat Thai, and have no children (unless you count two cats). I live in an urban community, pay $275 rent/month by choice. What the lending programs don't know is that: A. I'm renting from my parents, building their investment equity, which I will eventually inherit. B. I live 3 minutes away from work, so I'm protecting *my* vehicle investment and my sanity re commutes. C. I have a nicer apt. layout than most people paying twice my rent and no - I don't need a roommate - and I'm not about to join CCCS to maintain it. So -- why in the world should that count against me when I purchase a home????? It's discriminatory and wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm planning to buy a home in a suburban neighborhood, rent it out to cover the mortgage, and stay put right where I am.
Re: Reverse Discrimination Well Bunter, I'm more educated today than I was yesterday or the day before on this matter. I have read Greg's links (thank you very much, Greg) and it does appear to me if those statistics are accurate, and I'm assuming so as they are all different sources and saying the same thing. If you are denied a home loan, for example, based on a system (read credit scoring and more specifically an individual company's credit scoring and credentialing, e.g., Household) and there's nothing glaringly obvious on the surface setting you apart from others similar to you, that were approved, for no other reason than you were born a certain color (not-white), a minority (read black, because those studies focus mostly on the disparities between black people and white people in America), THAT you are black, is reason enough to claim discrimination and play the race card (where did this phrase come from anyway the O.J. trials?), with statistics to support that you likely were discriminated against for no other reason. I found it both interesting and shocking that intent doesn't have to be there. Interesting because, the studies indicate that just removing the color equation from the scoring capabilities isn't enough; color isn't really removed it is only hidden or recycled through the scoring system but still impacting all the other factors so you still end up with a score based on assumptions that are indicative of color even though color isn't there. Shocking because, I am sorry to say, my white opinion of what discrimination is or isn't was wrapped up in some kind of intent being present, obvious or otherwise. That's not necessarily the case. So, the woman in the article being black, had every reason to assume that the denial was based on her color, because she is black. If you are white and denied, you can't make the same assumption, because you aren't black. Now that may be sassy-simpleton reasoning, but I was sitting up straight when I realized that we've only made blackness and whiteness more complicated in our America, it does however appear to me that, in the end, it is still a matter of who is black and who is white, simple as that. Color isn't determining who's using what bathrooms anymore but it's being used in determining credit scores and we all know the impacts of that. clc said: While my background is wasp privileged I have seen for myself the out and out discrimination against the URMs and feel compelled when confronted with a "reverse" discrimination complaint to respond that the blacks in this country suffered years of repression and denial of opportunities and should definitely be given opportunities that have been handed to their caucasian counterparts on a silver platter. So, sassy, while I hold you in high regard as one of the brightest and best researchers on this site I have to say that your son might be facing some obstacles in getting his foot in the door...but nothing that come even close to the struggle that the "redline" population has endured. I didn't need an american black history lesson nor need reminding of the injustices our fellow Americans, who HAPPEN to be black, have suffered. I don't believe the way to right those wrongs is by swinging so far the other way. You can't make discrimination wrongs right by continuing to discriminate, I don't care what kind of package you wrap it up in! That is not equality. And, if this is how we, as Americans, are attempting to make restitution for the actions and lifestyles of our forefathers, then we are a few thousand years behind in making right what we did to this indians of this great nation, and continue to do, blatantly. And, if this is how we, as Americans, are attempting to make restitution, why do we still feel free to make comments about Jewish people as were previously made in this thread. How do you even know who is Jewish? And, if this is how we, as Americans, are attempting to make restitution, why do we have Asian people being smuggled into this country, in indentured servitude, forced to live their lives in the twisted sex market, TODAY? And, if this is how we, as Americans, are attempting to make restitution, why are we not, every last one of us and especially black Americans, outraged at the EXISTING slavery market in Africa. Until the day God creates us all the same or WE create us all the same, our differences should be a cause for celebration and make us stronger as a country, as a society, as a nation, and as human beings, every one of us with blood that is the same color, says ME. Let's stop saying: I would also like to add that every type of standardized test in this country from the ssat,sat,gmat,gre and lsat is geared toward the white middle class and their experiences and opportunities in life that are basically denied to kids in the inner city. and attaching it to whiteness, there ARE white kids in our inner cities! Let's address the PEOPLE of our inner cities, all of them, AS PEOPLE. Stop perpetuting the labelling. WHY does Household consider dwelling unit in its credit factoring? Is it because of the ideas already tossed out? Is it truly a factor based on business necessity? Is the way dwelling unit is factored in and considered really telling you what you need to know to make a lending decision? And if it isn't, how can we adjust those models to reflect credit risk and lending standards for home ownership? Let's go further and ask the same question of the sub-prime and predatory lending housing markets -- there's the newest repackaged label . While we are busy asking and addressing these questions, let us not forget that the rest of the world does not exist separate from us. Our history is just that -- our history, let's learn from it and be a wiser nation for it, not make it our future too. Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination Excellent point. Because the anti-semitic statements in this thread, no matter how racist, are not sponsored by the government of the United States. Because the smuggling business, no matter how sordid, is not sponsored by the government of the United States. Again, this is not - to my knowledge - sponsored by the government of the United States. The difference between you and I, sassy, is that you will NEVER have to explain to your children why the constitution of the nation that you're a citizen of had to include an amendment in it - just to keep you from being somebody else's property. You will never have to expain to your children why their state and local government had to repeal LAWS controlling who went to school where, who got to live where, and who got to be part of their family. Can you comprehend what it feels like to be a citizen of a nation that had LAWS at every single legislative level to prevent you from pursuing "life, liberty and happiness..."? Can you? That is why any discrimination from a federal supported lending program - even be it cleverly hidden by "disparate impact" is WRONG. The people who deserve federal restituion in this nation for wrongs perpetrated against them based on ethnicity? The Japanese (who got it, by the way), the Native Americans and the African-Americans - both of whom are still waiting... _______ Here's another example of racist lending - explained to me by a (white) real estate agent in my church. When a brand new development is being built, and agents want it filled, they target a white community that is at capacity and purposely sell the first available house they can to an African-American family. Once that family moves in, they go around to the neighboring white families, explain how the property values are now decreasing b/c "this black family just moved in and more are soon to follow" and that they bettter get out while they can while they still decent equity. The frightened white people are then carefully guided to the brand new development as a good place to move. He told me hey make money all around - from the African-American families excited about moving to a "better neighborhood" and from the white families scared out of their wits based on racist assumptions. Don't think this doesn't happen all the time.
Re: Reverse Discrimination marci, Sponsored by the government of the United States THAT I understand, yes -- thank you! The difference between you and I, sassy, is that you will NEVER have to explain to your children why the constitution of the nation that you're a citizen of had to include an amendment in it - just to keep you from being somebody else's property. You will never have to expain to your children why their state and local government had to repeal LAWS controlling who went to school where, who got to live where, and who got to be part of their family. Can you comprehend what it feels like to be a citizen of a nation that had LAWS at every single legislative level to prevent you from pursuing "life, liberty and happiness..."? Can you? No, no and no again. Those are powerful words, marci, you've no idea the impact it had on me just reading it, truly, thank you! I cannot comprehend that experience because I've not nor will I live it; however, I am trying to understand it. That is why any discrimination from a federal supported lending program - even be it cleverly hidden by "disparate impact" is WRONG. AMEN! I absolutely agree it is WRONG! The people who deserve federal restituion in this nation for wrongs perpetrated against them based on ethnicity? The Japanese (who got it, by the way), the Native Americans and the African-Americans - both of whom are still waiting... The Japanese received monies for the internment camps, that is what you are referring to, yes? A literal payment as restitution? That doesn't take away that it happened -- or is it the payment that provides small comfort for the future because there was an admission of wrong-doing? Is it the being sorry that makes the difference, like when the Pope apologized for the previous actions of the catholic church? Horrible things happen in this world that I find revolting, horrible things have happened in this world that I find sickening, literally, horrible things are still happening -- I guess this is what I am not getting. Nothing can take it back once it has happened so how can you ever really make it right? That's like the death penalty, the government kills someone for doing something horrible to another, but it still doesn't take you back to where you were before the murder occurred. You can't ever get that back -- how do you make that right? I could say the murderer deserved to die, but that's not making it right. I want the person ripped from me, back -- that can't happen. I don't think you can ever make that right; I don't think you can ever make slavery right either. Not today, nor yesterday. My own family has not been untouched by black people. In fact, if we are still defining blackness as a single drop of blood, then I'm black and I've direct maternal lineage to John Brown; I don't look black so I've not experienced what that means -- black blood isn't the same as black skin. I however, as well as a good number of other americans, I would like to believe, are sorry, very sorry, for what has happened to black americans in the past in this country, as well what continues to go on -- it is wrong, I want it to stop -- how can I make that happen? What can I tell my children to keep it from happening again, to keep it from happening still? Will your children still be explaining to their children why their country continues to oppress them? I can't change the whole world, marci, and I can't change history. I can, however, change my world and those that are in it -- tell me please what it will take to make that happen. Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination Interesting wording, Sassy. If my children's children are being oppressed by legislation in this nation, then yes, I would hope that they know exactly why it is happening and do everything they can (by exercising their rights as citizens) to stop it. By the way, doesn't everybody do this? Isn't that why everyone votes - to keep from being oppressed in some way by legislation? I borrow from Jewish people on this subject: never forget... I intend to teach my children the same. They will never forget what a government can do to it's own citizens.
Re: Reverse Discrimination "Everytime i try to get out, they keep pulling me back in"---Michael Corleone, Godfather III Marci, While you are teaching your children to hate the system, that oppresses them, be sure to explain to them the little secret that nobody in the African-American community likes to talk about. It was Africans who sold other African tribes into slavery for drugs (rum and tobaco)!!. . .Never Forget. . . Again, I suggest anyone who has been reading this thread to research the "Treaty of Rome" to truly understand how every govt. really thinks about "their" citizens. More importantly, i hope you teach your children, to love everybody, and question everything. With that philosophy, you can't go wrong. humblemarc
Re: Reverse Discrimination First, please specifically define what you mean when you write "system". Second, please restate where I wrote that I would teach my children to "hate the system that oppresses them". I believe I wrote that I would teach my children to know what a government can do to it's own citizens and that I would teach them how to exercise their rights as citizens. Anyone would (or should) do the same for their children. You see, I don't believe in splitting. I believe in telling the truth. The US government (and here I mean all levels of government) is neither all bad nor all good. It is what it is. But what the US government has done badly - I'll make sure my kids know how not to let it happen again inasmuch lies in their voting power. And before you ask - yes, I will teach my kids the good that my government does for them, as well. I'd be interested in learning how you know what people in the African-American community don't like to talk about. That's quite a feat, seeing that even I don't know what people in the African-American community don't like to talk about, and I'm part of said community. Is this supposed to be a stunning revelation to me that's designed to make me hang my head in shame and back down from expecting my government to play fair when it comes to federal legislation or federal agencies and African-Americans? That somehow, some African nations' involvement in slavery reduces the culpability of the nation that I am a citizen of? Well let me say a few things: 1. What happened in African nations is not at all germane to the US government's use of legislation for ethnic discrimination (which continued LONG after the slave trade ended, btw) - nor - to bring this thread back on topic - is it germane to the government using a system (i.e. FICO) that includes scoring based on communities which in turn are often based on ethnicity. If the lady in the original article was negatively affected by some type of disparate impact based on her ethnicity (religion, physical ability, etc.... and all those disclaimers we ALL hold so dearly to) then MORE POWER TO HER to seek recourse. 2. Not all Africans brought to the West were sold by African governments. Many were kidnapped outright - without the knowledge of the local/national governments there. As I told you, I don't believe in splitting. I believe in telling the truth. 3.For the African governments who did participate in slave trading, the citizens of those nations ought to demand some type of accounting for the destruction of their families. But seeing that I am an American citizen - I can only hold my own government accountable. It is quite possible to appreciate, and even love something, while holding it accountable for it's faults. And that accountabilty is what I will teach my children to never forget.
Re: Reverse Discrimination I wasn't trying to be cute with words, marci. Legislation is created by people, enacted by people, and our government is staffed by people and elected by people. I'm throwing away these rose-colored glasses. Here's a link to Microvision: http://www.tetrad.com/pub/prices/microvision.pdf Posted by mkxt from this thread: http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?s=&pgnum=1&postid=243964#post243964 It uses data gathered from the US census and merchants to create boxes for individuals based on zip code with the 4 additional digits at the end. Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination Thank you for your honesty, Sassy. Thank you for the microvision website. I have been aware of it for about two years when a poster named "Roni" posted it as a place where credit cards determined which neighborhoods got marketed for which cards. Experian has a "geographic code" listed on it's credit reports. I've never gotten an answer from them why it is there - and what the numbers mean. I'm sure TU and EQX have this data compiled somewhere, too. This problem goes far beyond Fannie Mae.
Re: Reverse Discrimination No, you suggested that I was teaching my children to "hate the system that oppresses them". I asked you to define "system" and I asked you to show me where I stated that I intended to do such a thing. The problem that I have with your initial response to me is that you're turning my gripe with the US government into some perpetual victimization syndrome that I presume you're thinking most African-Americans are stuck in re "the (undefined) man". This is why I asked you to define "system". I could care less about "the man". I'm not about to give "the man" (whoever that may represent) enough power in my life to hinder me from taking advantage of my own opportunities. I never have, and I'm not about to start now. However, as a voting citizen - I will make damn sure that my government doesn't legislate those opportunities away from me. This is neither victimization, nor waiting on a hand-out, nor laziness. This is about being a responsible citizen to my community by making sure my government is responsible to me. EVERY AMERICAN enjoys this privilege. If I ask my government to be accountable for how it is treating me based on ehtnicity - I am NOT playing the "race card", nor am I perpetuating victimization. Somewhere, I faintly remember a teacher saying "...for the people, by the people...". To put this back on topic, the woman in the article has every right as an American to make sure the government (or arm of the govn. in FM) does not use her ethnicity against her (if in fact this is what her lawsuit is about). By accusing her of playing the race card, as many have done in this thread, people are essentially reasoning along the lines of: "your dispute with FM is not valid because you're using race as the basis of the dispute. We all know that racial discrimination belongs in the bygone era and can't exist now. Therefore this problem must be with you. You just want to be a victim and you want another handout". The accusation devalues her claim, which very well could be legitimate, and this is what I object to. Is it at all possible that her credit could be excellent (or even like most Americans, good to excellent), and that all of her other ducks are in a row - and that she could still be affected by racial discrimination? What if she told FM to jump in a river, and had the means and wherewithall (taking advantage of her opportunities, after all) to pursue other financing sources? Does that mean she doesn't have the right (as a citizen) to hold FN accountable to federal law re racial discrimination or that if she does, she's just being a victim waiting ona hand-out? Some things were handed to me, as well. I will not be so bold as to say I "put myself" in a position to get them. My family gets that honor. However, I did put myself in a position to make the best use of the opportunities handed to me. By the way, opportunities are "handed" to every American. No one earns any opportunity a priori. It's just that if an African-American gets handed an opportunity (and race happens to be part of the defining factor), all of sudden it becomes a free hand-out to the perpetual victim - and I believe that such characterization is grossly unfair. Congratulations. I'm an Ivy League graduate as well. And I worked damn hard to be one. My hard work doesn't release my government from accountability. I beg to differ. First, the things that my greatgrandparents experienced were just as atrocious as anything that is happening internationally. Second, when people begin to compare atrocities across societies, they go down a slippery slope of "you ought to be glad you're in ____ situation and not in ______, so don't complain about the treatment you're getting now". A plantation, no matter how comfortable, is still a plantation. And discrimination, no matter how light or heavy comparatively, is still discrimination. I choose to succeed regardless of what is thrown at me (by the grace of God) - AND - I still choose to hold my government accountable. Nothing is wrong with that. If you got this far, thank you for reading. I think we both have made our points as clearly as possible - so I don't expect you to reply. I simply ask you not to devalue my approach as waiting on an undeserved hand-out. Too many people died making this nation become accountable to ALL Americans.
Re: Reverse Discrimination Marci, Ten years ago, i would have agreed with everything you said about keeping the govt. accountable. At one point, i was going to be a diplomat. But unfortunately, it has come to my attention that certain things are past the point of no return. Without going into details, i will say that everybody needs do keep a vigilant eye on their own personal freedoms. Here is one of my earlier post (there are two within that thread) concerning that. You can make your own conclusions about what i mean. http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=232622#post232622 I apologize for not responding to your first post. I assumed it was mostly rhetorical. Nevertheless, I invite you to join us by the campfire, with our cheap bic lighters, singing songs of peace and love, no matter how unrealistic they may be? humblemarc
Re: US slavery yesterday and today Well speaking in regards to resitutition and accountability what about every other "ethnic" group in this country that has equally been treated poorly? So perhaps there may not have been outright slavery in this particular country, but several ethnic and racial groups, if you will, have been all treated with callous discrimination. And it seems like for example that we keep returning from race and keep speaking about continual discimination. When Irish people began to emigrate to this country after the Great Famine throughout this country they were treated extemely bad. It was not uncommon to see signage that is reminiscent of Nazi Germany saying No Irish Apply, No Irish Enter, No Irish, etc etc. The Irish were viewed as an "undesirable race" and even in the South the Irish people were used for dirty and dangerous jobs so as to not risk any harm or damage to slaves! In fact other Americans complete disregard and outright discrimination and one could say hatred of Irish people even worried free blacks in the North. Frederick Douglas in writings complained about how blacks had to compete with the Irish for existing jobs, but also emphasized with the Irish after visiting Ireland and seeing how Irish people lived in comparison to their British counterparts. The Italians coming to this country experienced the same types of discrimination and hatred. Also we can not forget about the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Eastern Europeans, Latinos, and the list can go on all day long. As for reparations that have been paid in this country to Japanese people during internment camps were paid to the people that actually suffered the internments. These reparations were not paid to their children's children's children, etc etc. Reparations, if that is what it is called for Jewish people after the Holocaust, have been tracked down on an international level versus an only American government level. Unfortunately whereas reparations made for Japanese people who were governmentally sanctioned into internment camps were based on the fact that the USA government made the decision to imprison Japanese families, slavery was a "private" industry participated in by the "aristocratic" southerners. As for Native Americans-- even if reservations have tax free casinos and the like Native Americans still represent a group of people who are still also discriminated against and one of the, if not the, poorest segments of this country. Reservations are for the most part dirt poor even with governement assistance. What about other people that have been enslaved for centuries? The actual enlish word "slave" or "slavery" comes from the word "slav" which was used since most slaves in europe actually came from people captured and sold as slaves from Slavic lands (read here eastern european). Even the word, Welsh, actually comes from an anglo-saxon word "wealas" word meaning "servant." Slaves have been owned in this world by europeans, moors, africans, asians, etc etc. Slavery continues today in full open view on every continenent. And what about the current slavery trade even here in the United States? Women and children today in this very country primarily from Asia, Eastern Europe, Latin America, and some African countries are brought and smuggled into this country are brought to this country under false pretenses to work as prositutes and servants-- and some labourers per a report completed by the CIA in 2000. I think the figures ranged anywhere from 50,000-100,000 per year and if I recall from the article it is a multi-billion dollar industry. And truthfully, to the people affected by this today does anyone here even think they will have a reparation? And these people are experiencing slavery today in this very country. Unfortunately, I do not think so because it is not something that the USA endorses or supports. My posting is not to to enflame, but rather to serve as a basis that most of us in this very country has spent time being on the end of the discrimination stick, and many of our own ethnicities today even remain enslaved. Most cultures, and ethnicities have been slaves of another race or class in history.
Re: Reverse Discrimination You're welcome, marci, thank you for yours as well. I got the microvision link from another thread so the thanks goes to mkxt and back to Roni. I searched and searched for every combination of Roni I could come up with and couldn't find any reference to microvision; I was curious of previous discussions. I got out my last experian report as well, I'd noticed a code before with the addresses but hadn't paid much attention to it. Then I set out surfing and found specific to experian: Geographical code: http://www.rentlaw.com/freecreditreports3.htm This information is received from the Census Bureau and represents the state, Metropolitan Statistical Area, county, tract and block group of the reported address. This code is similar to a ZIP code. specific to TU: TU's Geo code: http://www.openonline.com/pdf/tu_guide.pdf. specific to equifax: Equifax Equifax provide marketing information and market profiling services as well as many other products, including credit information provision and vehicle history checking. Address:http://www.equifax.co.uk Claritas = Experian, scroll down to find experian and TU as well http://www.claritas.com/5_company_info/sub/partners.htm I have to agree :-( it goes FAR beyond Fannie Mae, it goes international! I responded on the other thread as well so I won't repeat all that: http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=244469#post244469 I'm sorry marci, truly I am, for any discrimination, for past discrimination, for our history, for you feeling that I could never really be empathetic and comprehend because I've not lived it. You are right, I haven't lived it so I will never fully understand the implications of something so ugly and hateful. I am trying to get it, however, and am equally outraged with the disparate and passive acts of continuing discrimination. It is wrong. I can teach my children though, I can vote, I can hold our government accountable, I can do now what I can do to recognize acts of continuing discrimination and act to stop it. I can remain hopeful that one day america will truly be color-blind -- for my kids and yours. Sassy
Re: Reverse Discrimination humblemarc, Thanks for your reply. I would be more than happy to join you guys in "imagining" a world without prejudice. You might want to be forewarned though, that I have been told (by a black person no less) that I dispel the stereotype that all black people know how to sing. Just so you know, before I let loose... The trend toward a microchip controlled one world order, as you so adeptly point out in your links, does not frighten me. As a Christian, I expect it. Thankfully, I believe that things don't end for me there, but that's another thread for another day... Sassy, That's a very, very sweet reply. Thank you for the hard work you did re the links on demographic analyses. I really appreciate you and humblemarc bearing my anger so graciously and answering me so responsibly. Thank you! "a kind answer turns away wrath..."
Re: Reverse Discrimination (in the style of Sassy) awwwwwwwwwww marci, i didn't think you were "angry" let's call it "righteous indignation." humblemarc
Re: Reverse Discrimination I LOVE this thread! It doesn't end there for me either, marci. I just didn't realize that it had all fallen into place without any attention -- that experian is already international and that the USA is a state of the EU is flabbergasting to me. Looking up! Sassy I SAW that awwwwwwwwwww marc! LOL
