Gosh, I hardly know where to begin. About 18-20 months ago, I received a company credit card. It had the company name, and my name on it. Two months, maybe less, after joining the company, I left. I returned my card (in pieces) and notified the card company, First USA Bank, that I no longer had the account. I never charged anything on the card. They indicated no problem with this at the time. Now, I'm getting nearly daily phone calls from the credit card company. Apparently my former employer is defaulting on the account (last payment was in March), and First USA says I am now responsible for all the company's debts. Moreover, since it is a business account, they can call me as often as they like, as I have no protection from the usual consumer laws, or so they claim. They've never sent me a bill for the account, because they didn't have my address (I have this recorded on tape, by the way). I gave them my address hoping that would stop the harassing calls, but the manager assured me that they will keep calling until the account is paid in full. They assert that I signed a contract agreeing to pay all company debts, but claim I must write them to get a copy of this alleged contract. I have written them (as well as a credit reporting agency), but so far have received nothing (although the agency did write me to say they are investigating the matter). When they call, telling them that I've submitted in writing that I'm contesting this debt has not helped. Help. Can I claim any protection at all from these harassing phone calls? I've had the same conversation with them at least 5 times now, and they called my home the last two mornings at 8am or so. I don't want to go through this every morning. On yesterday's call, I informed them that any future calls to my home would by default be hiring me as a consultant at $500 per hour or phone call...the manager of course was unconcerned. I know such a thing is futile, but this is ridiculous. My next bet is to claim protection from harassment via the ADA, but surely there's already some legal protection here? Help. This can't be right. Thanks, Rick
Rick Upon leaving your old position, did you have an exiting interview? Where you possibly signed and dated something stating you left company. Did you sign anything that stated you returned all company property? Can you contact your previous employer for HR records that prove you left the company 16 months prior to the company defaulting on their credit obligation? If you can get any documentation showing you left the company, inform the CA and well as the OC you have proof. Send them a C&D letter and if they continue to call tell them you will see them in court to collect your $1,000 per violation.
Rick, Since this is a business account, they really can play by a different set of rules. I'd suggest you retain a lawyer to {a} demand they present you with evidence of your responsibility and {B} to field the phone calls. Once you have a lawyer you can demand that all communication between you and FUSA goes through the lawyer. Lots of luck getting a lawyer on the phone at 8 a.m.
Yuck, a laywer...I'd rather use the C&D letter. Guess I'll start making inquiries for a cheapish lawyer. I *think* the account is due around $10,000. Does that "relatively small" amount alter any advice I've received so far? I'm not sure proving I left the company will help much, although I do have my resignation letter copy here (listing that I returned car keys, cut up credit card, and company letterhead/papers). I'll provide it...can someone confirm that it'll do me good? Thanks, Rick
Now, I'm getting nearly daily phone calls from the credit card company. Apparently my former employer is defaulting on the account (last payment was in March), and First USA says I am now responsible for all the company's debts. I don't know about you but I would working damn HARD to prove that I am not responsible for $10K of someone else's debt. Is this CA or OC calling any other employees (past or present)? Why you? I'd send that C&D today. If they threat to sue, counter. "Look mister judge I didn't ever work for the company during the time they say I owe this money". Do they even have a billing statement showing that you used the card? Unless you ran up on the business card and then ran out on the bill I don't see where they have anything on you. Tell them to prove it.
Well, it IS rather hard to prove a negative, and my attempts to figure out how to do so are what's led me here. Sorry if I appear slow, but other than asking for documentation of the alleged debt, and documentation of my alleged claiming the alleged debt, I was a bit stumped. I'll send the C&D out tomorrow morning, as I'd never make it to the post office today. Again, my apologies, but the first few times they called, when I told them it was a company account and that I hadn't been with the company for over a year, they seemed understanding that there was some confusion here. Alas, I didn't purchase my phone call recording equipment then, or I could more firmly back this up. It truly didn't occur to me that I could be held responsible for unauthorized charges in a long closed company account long after I'd left the company; I'm a little ignorant of such things. The fact that they've never sent me a bill for these charges, I feel, should at least put them on shaky ground, regardless of whatever contract they claim I signed. I believe this is all coming from the alleged document they claim I signed indicating I would assume all company debts. I don't know any other employees of the company (this was a while ago, before I moved, and I was there briefly before moving to a new position), I presume they're contacting me simply because they can. I'm still a little confused on how I managed to waive my personal rights simply by being on a company account, it seems like that sort of thing would require a statement from me, I remember nothing of the sort. If it truly is this easy to annihilate the law, I get the feeling that in the future all credit card companies will insist all accounts be "company", if the law changes so dramatically in this way. Again, thanks for your advice. Take care, Rick
OK Rick I jump on FirstUSA's website and looked up what little terms and conditions listed on-line. Per the website... Authorization: When you submit your certificate or application for this credit card offer from First USA Bank, N.A. ("First USA", "we" or "us"), you agree to the following: You authorize us to obtain business and consumer credit bureau reports in connection with your request for an account. If an account is opened, we may obtain credit bureau reports in connection with extensions of credit or the review or collection of your account. If you ask, we will tell you the name and address of each credit bureau from which we obtained a report about you. If an account is opened, you will receive a Cardmember Agreement with your card(s). By using the account or any card, or authorizing their use, you agree to the terms of the Cardmember Agreement. We will allocate payments to the lowest APR first. Claims and disputes are subject to arbitration. The terms of your account, including the APRs, are subject to change. Any such changes will be made in accordance with the Cardmember Agreement. You also certify that you have the authority to permit First USA to issue your credit card containing the Company name if completed on the application. Individual and Company Liability: You understand that by accepting this offer you agree to be personally responsible for payment of all balances incurred on all cards and accounts issued pursuant to this application now or whenever such additional accounts may be established in the future. If you indicated that you are acting as an officer of the Company with the ability to bind the Company to the obligations of this agreement, then the Company is jointly liable for all balances on all accounts established in the Company name. You understand that if you leave the employment of the Company, you will continue to be responsible for the outstanding balances on the accounts. You must notify First USA immediately to close the accounts and prevent further usage. First USA will review your credit history and Company information to determine if the Company qualifies for a Visa card and, if so, the credit line. We may request additional information for a credit line above $25,000. If your account is approved, the applicant will have access to 100% of the approved credit limit. All additional cardmembers will have a monthly spending limit equal to 50% of the aggregate line of credit assigned to the primary applicant. The monthly spending limit is the amount the cardmember may spend each month. If you would like to change your credit line assignment(s), please contact our Cardmember Service Department after your account has been opened. My DH also has a FirstUSA/Bank One company credit card. He did not sign an application or did the boss give his SS number but when he open his personal checking account at Bank One they did show that he had a Bank One credit card. This news did not sit well with him. What you need is proof that you did call FirstUSA when you left the company. Proof that the company did remove you as a cardholder would help too. Get that C&D out and check out www.lawyers.com they had message boards maybe they can help.
What if he had proof from the NEW employer that he has been with them since he left the other company? How about past tax returns? Were you an officer of the company? It just doesnt add up. That would be like me making my neighbir responsible for MY CC's just because he moved into the yellow house.
Holy crud, I'm screwed. Your DH is probably screwed also. You don't even need a signature to become liable to all debts of a company? I'll never be able to prove that I notified FirstCard. I do note in this agreement that it says "By using the account or any card, or authorizing their use, you agree to the terms of the Cardmember Agreement. " I never used the account, any card on the account, or authorized the use of any card on the account. Don't they have to at some point show I authorized/used the card/account? Thus, I did not agree to the terms of the cardmember agreement. I guess it's just a sliver, but gee whiz, this sure doesn't strike me as exactly fair. Thank god I never used the damn thing. Off to lawyers.com...just unbelievable. Thanks so kindly, Rick
IRS MAY BE ABLE TO HELP??? XX/XX date last income from XXXXX company??? Not sure if they would take new employer's word for it either...that you DON'T work for XXXXX company.
I'm gonna go out on a limb... I'm going to call Bank One tomorrow. I need to know for my DH, I need to know if somehow we would be liable for someone's debt.
It seems pretty irrelevant whether I can prove I didn't work for the company at any particular point. It's the old "impossible to prove a negative" issue. But their terms say I'm responsible even if I leave the company, so whether/when I left is irrelevant...I sure don't recall signing this type of contract; heck I sure wouldnt' do it knowingly, that would open myself up to millions of dollars of liability, and the frightening prospect that any employer can do this to his employees without their consent is amazing. I'm surprised there aren't repeated lawsuits about this sort of thing. Take care, Rick
Well, if you go by the terms of the contract, you can't sue. By taking the card you agree to arbitration. Gib
But what if you never took the card? The boss can fill out the applications for the whole company (but not himself), and keep them as they come in, maybe passing a few out to his more gullible cronies, as 'rewards'...most people, when given a company card, might not suspect they're instantly opening themselves up to the entire debt of the company, after all, despite those amazing liability clauses. A few years later, all the former employees, even those who never knew the account existed, find out they're each jointly and separably liable for tons of debt....and they don't even get the protection of the fair debt collection laws, since these are business accounts. This is just SICK, I really get the feeling this little arrangement is something new, because there seems to be massive potential for abuse here, and that 'agreement' to arbitration will be challenged by people that never had a clue what hit them. In my case, yes, I took the card, and I daresay I somehow missed that liability clause (I think I was just handed the card, in fact). But, that doesn't change the fact that I never used it or authorized any charges on it, so I don't see how I 'agreed' to their terms. Take care, Rick
OK I called Bank One / FirstUSA this morning and spoke to a very nice CSR, Lynn. I explained to her that my DH has a business card issued by FirstUSA with the company on the first line and his name on the second. I told her that we were reading the individual and company liability causes on-line and we were questioning his liability if this account goes into the rears. According to Bank One / First USA ONLY the primary authorizing officer is liable for that account. The primary authorizing officer is defined as the person listed on the card application. Authorizing officers are limited to the following: President, Vice President, Treasurer, Owner, Member and Partner. Only the authorizing officer can open and close an account. I asked about what happens when an employee who is issued a card leaves the company, does that employee need to contact FirstUSA? Lynn said no it is the authorizing officer's responsibility but if the employee wants to have it noted that he left on this date they are free to do so. I asked what if the primary authorizing officer does not close the account and continues to use it what happens. Accounting to Lynn that can't happen because my DH's name is imprinted on the card and the signature must match just like every other CC. BUT, that does not stop them from using it on-line. I went back on-line and looked at the on-line application and there is a section called additional cards. It asks for Name, Title and SSN. I know that my DH's boss did not add them on-line, that he just called to add his employees. I still feel very uneasy about this whole thing, look what is happening to you Rick. I mean I know that CA's say anything to try to get a debt paid but how is it that Bank One / FirstUSA says one thing and the collecting CA says another. Have you tried to contact your ex-employer to ask what the heck is going on? Please keep us updated on your progress, I have a personal vested interest in the outcome.
Rick, Were you an authorized officier for the account? This is the most important item. The personal guaranteer is the one responsible for the account if the company defaults. Eg. Amex Corporate - I am the personal guaranteer for my company. So if the organization does not pay its bill, I am solely responsible. They (Amex) cannot go after the company's employees because they were added under my name. On the other hand, Amex Corporate also has cards that makes the employee solely responsible. But the employee must fill out an application, have their credit report checked, etc. It basically all comes down to 1) if you were the personal guaranteer for the company (the one that opened the account); or 2) that the card was accepted by your signature and credit report. They cannot come after you if you were an employee under the company's card, because you have no fiscal responsibility. Dani
>>OK I called Bank One / FirstUSA this morning and spoke to a very nice CSR, Lynn. I explained to her that my DH has a business card issued by FirstUSA with the company on the first line and his name on the second. I told her that we were reading the individual and company liability causes on-line and we were questioning his liability if this account goes into the rears. According to Bank One / First USA ONLY the primary authorizing officer is liable for that account. The primary authorizing officer is defined as the person listed on the card application. Authorizing officers are limited to the following: President, Vice President, Treasurer, Owner, Member and Partner. Only the authorizing officer can open and close an account.>> I'd be pretty reluctant to believe this, since it isn't what it says in the contract. They had no problem when I called and told them I wanted my account closed too. In any event, I can assure you I'm not the primary authorizing officer of this account. >> I asked about what happens when an employee who is issued a card leaves the company, does that employee need to contact FirstUSA? Lynn said no it is the authorizing officer's responsibility<< Gee, if only this were the truth...the liabilities part of that snippet of contract you put up here earlier doesn't say anything about that, give it a reread. It's almost certain the written contract has superiority to anything said on the phone. >>DH's name is imprinted on the card and the signature must match just like every other CC. BUT, that does not stop them from using it on-line. << As near as I can tell, there was all sorts of activity in "my" account, even without a card. All the cards are billed to a company account (at least, that is what I believe my particular company account was). >>I went back on-line and looked at the on-line application and there is a section called additional cards. It asks for Name, Title and SSN. I know that my DH's boss did not add them on-line, that he just called to add his employees.<< That may well be what happened to me; again assuming the contract you printed up here is the right one, using the card indicates acceptance, not a signature on the application (I think the signature allows checking into the credit report). I could, of course, be wrong...but it does seem like applying for an account should be a bit different than actually getting the account and associated debt. >>I still feel very uneasy about this whole thing, look what is happening to you Rick. I mean I know that CA's say anything to try to get a debt paid but how is it that Bank One / FirstUSA says one thing and the collecting CA says another. << You know, there's a neat website with many, many, horror stories on FirstUSA's business practices, not even getting into CAs. I don't know if putting up links here is legal, but google turned it up quickly enough. Ok, now I'm ready to talk about the latest happenings. On 7/31, I had a long chat with a couple employees. The conversation was recorded. The manager assured me that I would continue to be called repeatedly until I paid on the account (no, not a threat, "that's just how we do it"), but also said the next call wouldn't be for at least 5 business days. He said the only way I could get "off the hook" (his words) was some sort of statement from the business; I have it on tape, but I really wasn't taking him seriously at the time. On 8/1, I received two more calls; one was at 8am, and they hung up on me (as near as I can tell) while I transferred to the recording machine phone. The other was at 6:30pm; I blew it off. They use a computer dialer, I know the sound when I pick up the phone. On 8/2, I received a call at 8:10 am...again the hang-up while I transferred phones. I received another call at 8:45am on 8/2. This time I ran out of bed to answer it from the recording machine. I had another nice chat with their representative, verifying that the call was strictly for harassment (well, she acknowledged that there was no way I could have received the bill before her call, so there could be no other purpose to the call). I then talked to their manager (he refused to give his last name, instead giving an ID#), and he told me if they got a letter from the business indicating that I was not authorized in the account, that I would be released. Naturally, I suspected he was lying to me, and asked to be transferred to someone else to confirm his claims. After several transfers, I talked to someone else, who told me that the business would need to write them a letter giving the name of someone else who was responsible for the account. (At no point did they indicate that any signature of the new scapegoat, much less a notarized signature, would be required to instantly transfer what could be tons of debt; they may have asked to include a SS#, too lazy to check the tape right now. Imagine, your boss right now could be making you automatically responsible for a company credit card account...). Naturally, I told her that what she said wasn't the same as what the other guy said; after much haggling, she transferred me to another person, who said nearly the same thing she did. Unfortunately, my tape ran out (doh! still learning the thing), so I didn't get to record the conversation with the third rep, but frankly I find it rather hard to believe the entire debt of a company can be transferred so easily. They also stated that they received my first letter stating I'm contesting this account and asking for documentation some weeks ago. They also insist that there are no other names on the company account. Obviously a lie, as I'm certain at least two other people there had company credit cards, and I find it unlikely they got 'off the hook'. All the same, I sent them two certified rrr letters, one a cease and desist on the harassing phone calls, and another requesting their alleged contract with my alleged signature saying I was willing to assume the entire debts of the company. >>Have you tried to contact your ex-employer to ask what the heck is going on? << As a matter of fact, I did get an e-mail from the CEO yesterday eve (what luck, wasn't really expecting his e-mail account to still be active). He's in Montreal, but starting another restaurant supply business here and there. I wrote him asking for help in clarifying this (he had a card, too), no response as yet. >>Please keep us updated on your progress, I have a personal vested interest in the outcome. << Well, not much progress so far. I can't believe that I have no protection from these guys, and no recourse from their harassment policies. I tried the site you referred me too; I got a statement from them saying no lawyers are available to help me. Take care, Rick
Oh, it's the darndest thing. I just got a check from FirstUSA. I have a personal card from them (haven't used it in months...credit is zeroed out because of this, of course)...a charge got reversed, and with no charges on the card, they sent me the money. If they really thought I owed them money, would they be sending me checks??? I know, one thing doesn't necessarily relate to the other, but this whole situation is bizarre. Take care, Rick
Stupid statement of the year: Why should anyone have to tell them who owes them the money?.Isn't that what their records are for.? If they don't know who owes them the money what are they bugging you for? What dumb Idiots!
