Hi Group. I have a question regarding a collection agency and my CH. 7 Bankrtuptcy. I am in Florida. I filed CH. 7 bankruptcy in August 2003, and it was discharged in October 2003. In April of 2003, I had to go to the emergency room at a local hospital. My insurance covered most of the bill, and there is $212.75 left over that a secondary insurer was supposed to cover. Apparently, the secondary denied it because it didn't meet their deductible. I have no problem with that. Well, the hospital somehow had a completely non-existent address for me. The location does not exist. The street number and zip code were correct, but the street name does not exist. Anyway, I never received notice about this bill until I happened to call the hospital yesterday. I offered to pay it over the phone, but the rep said that it had been transferred to a collection agency. I called the CA and informed them that the address they had was incorrect, and that is why I have never received a notice from the hospital or them. The CA rep told me they just acquired the debt last month. I guess what it boils down to is this; was my debt with the hospital automatically discharged with the rest of my debts even though it was not listed in my schedule of creditors? Are there any special forms that need to be completed to include this? How do I prove to the CA that they have an uncollectible debt, if in fact it was discharged? The attorney I had for my proceedings has moved out of state. I'd rather not have to pay for a consulation on how to handle this. Any pro bono advice is greatly appreciated. PS: There was also a visit to the ER on Aug. 1, a week before I filed. As I understand it, there is about $180 left outstanding that is being rebilled to the secondary insurance for that visit. If that does not cover it, is this amount handled the same way? Thanks
Unfortunately, if it wasn't listed on the creditors list, then it wasn't included. I'm not a bk expert, but it may be possible to re-open your bk case to include these debts, but it would probably cost you more than the debts are themselves.
I did receive a response in a usenet group where an attorney said that, "In most states (and I don't know if Florida is one), *all* dischargeable debt existing as of the date of filing is discharged in a Chapter 7 no-asset bankruptcy, listed or not. Sending a copy of the Notice of Discharge to the CA should take care of the problem." That attorney practices in Maryland. I guess there lies my question. Is Florida one of those states? I would be more than happy to forward the collection agency a copy of my Notice of Discharge. What irks me about this is that I called the hospital fully intending to pay the balance on the account. The rep at the hospital told me the account had gone to collections, and only the CA could take payment. When I spoke to the CA rep, she was very snippy and rude to me, even though the reason I did not know of the debt was because they(the hospital and CA) had a nonexistent address for me. I'm sure the CA reps have to be like that to most people, but I was prepared to pay until she treated me like that for no reason. Especially since I was calling to pay off the account. Once that happened, I thought "if that debt was included even though it was not listed, screw em."
If they're not included, and you've been discharged, you're not protected. It sounds like the amount(s) involved do not justify reopening the petition and moving your discharge date out, simply on a cost basis. It may be too late to do this, but here's what I would do. Whenever anyone called me about a debt, I referred them to my attorney. I told them there's a reason I (a) filed BK and (b) hired an attorney and I had nothing to say to them, if they wanted any more info to speak to my attorney. Now in your case, that will be even tougher since your attorney is out of town. But that's not your problem - you have rights, and one of them is not to be pursued by any debt included in your BK. In fact, there are some very clear laws about this. They will have to either speak to your attorney or get a copy of your petition. If you maintain the same posture you would w/any creditor that was included in your BK, they will probably not bother. If they do follow up, you run the risk of having this on you CR, and you *really* don't want negative TLs after your BK filing date. So alternatively, considering paying the debt in return for agreement to not report the collection to any CRA. Others can advise on how to word that.
A little more clarification........... I have 2 people in this group telling me that the debts are not automatically discharged, and I have an attorney in another group that has state that in most states, all debts are discharged. I guess I just want to know if Florida is one of them. Anyone? Thanks
Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK It doesn't matter as far as your next step. Send them a copy of the discharge order. Be aggressive in the accompanying letter demanding IMMEDIATE DELETION OR ELSE. There is case law in some bankruptcy court districts that explicitly state that all dischargeble debts are discharged in a no-asset case whether or not they are listed. To my knowledge, there are NO bankruptcy court opinions that explicitly state the opposite (that they must be listed to be discharged). They would be fools to be the test case in your jurisdiction if the local court (or appeals court) has not already explicitly ruled on this. In any event, you have nothing to lose by sending them (the OC) a copy of the discharge order and a strongly worded letter.
Re: Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK Thanks. You are right. If I send them a copy of the discharge paper, I don't know if they would go through the trouble of challenging it.
Re: Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK As I stated, I don't know a lot about bk, but this to me makes no sense. Why bother with a notice to creditor and a list of creditors if everything that can be discharged will be regardless of whether it is listed or not.
The point of listing debts is to sort out who is entitled to whatever is left of the debtor's assets. If the debtor has, say, $10,000 in assets and $100,000 in liabilities, the schedules are used to determine who gets paid what out of the $10,000 and who gets stiffed. If a creditor is not listed that would have otherwise received cash, they are prejudiced by the debtor's failure to include them in the bankruptcy schedules. An unlisted debt is NOT discharged in bankruptcy in this situation. In a no asset case, the creditor is not prejudiced by the debtor's failure to list the debt as they would have received nothing anyway.
Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK OK, but my question now is the poster didn't say it was a no asset case.
You're correct. But is is a pretty safe assumption in an individual bankruptcy case. No asset means nothing left after exempted property or that the trustee feels that selling the non-exempt assets are'nt worth the bother.
I found this doing a search, it is for Az. bks, which is what I based my original response on. This may be for this district only. The clerk of the bankruptcy court sends a notice to creditors of the bankruptcy. This notice informs the creditor of the bankruptcy and of the date of the creditors' meeting and the time within which the creditor must act in order to participate in the bankruptcy. BR 2002(a), (f). Creditors who do not receive notice because their debts were not listed in the schedules the debtor is required to file are not subject to the discharge unless they had notice or actual knowledge of the bankruptcy acquired otherwise than by formal notice from the court. BRA s523(a)(3).
Re: Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK It is a no asset case. I think the other poster is correct in assuming that the collection company will leave me alone if I send them a copy of my discharge papers. It would cost them more to challenge it with the possibility that they would lose, which is high. I say this because the debt that they acquired was not listed because the original creditor never contacted me about the balance. They had a nonexistent address for me, and thus I never received any mail about this(only because someone at the post office was smart enough to figure out the totally incorrect address) until almost 3 months after my 341 meeting, and a month after discharge. I would think that any reasonable judge would see that this debt was not listed due to the fact that I was unaware of it.
Re: Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK Just got in touch with my previous attorney. He said that some judges are very strict, and he did not know what my particular judge would do. He did say that I couldn't very well list the debt, because I was unaware of it. He suggested sending a copy of the discharge, and that should take care of the CA. If they persisted, he said to call him, but he doesn't think they will challenge a discharge of a $200 debt. So now I am waiting for their "statement" to arrive so I can let them in on my little surprise. I'll post to the board the result.
Re: Re: Re: Help, please. CA and previous BK Just to update........... I called the CA and told them that the debt they were trying to collect was incurred in April 2003. I then told them that I filed BK 7 in August 2003, and that was discharged in Oct. 2003. She just asked me to send a copy of my discharge papers and they would take care of it. I will call back to verify that they have "taken care of it." Looks like they won't even bother with it.
