I am no attorney, but I have studied a little bit of law for the CPA exam. Basically, my understanding of contracts is that if you enter into a contract prior to age of majority (typically 18 yrs old for most states), then you have a "reasonable" amount of time after reaching the majority age to terminate the contract. Therefore, accordingly you would be held liable for the contract as 3 yrs would be considered unreasonalbe to cancel a contract (based on your age of 21). But... You also you committed fraud by lying about your age. I think in this case that the contract is voidable (not necessarily void) by the party that is wronged (in this case the creditor). But I am not 100% sure about this. There are several other statutes that may apply (i.e., a reasonable person "should have known" that you were under age...But I won't get into this) My advice is for you to discuss this with someone that practices law (especially if you have a family member/friend that is an attorney), or just settle the debt as clc said (she may know more than me as a paralegal). Hope this helps...
First I want to say "your welcome" to eric...and on a personal note...I have a daughter who is now 26 and I am helping her with her credit report. She only has a couple of negatives...as she never took advantage of cc offers when she was in college...and even she says "thank god for that!" One of her negs is a bill from her college for $1,300...from '96...and she has no idea what that is for....so I'm going to try the validation route just to see what it is for...it will drop off by itself next year....but I don't want her to pay something willy-nilly if she doesn't owe it....Her other negs are student loans....and we both know how to rehab those. I am willing to help her on this for the same reason I gave to you....to me it is a sign of maturity that she wants to get her credit life straightened out and be more responsible in her business affairs. Both of you are still babies to me...so I think that the lessons you learn at this stage are worth their weight in gold. As for Baday comments....the problem here is if he signed the "I swear I'm over 18 line" on the app....if he did then it is "intent to defraud"...this is considered "criminal" but depending on what state he is in...he might not even be liable criminally under the adult codes....it then would be under the juvenile codes which are much more forgiving...it might not be worth the hassle to push it to that extreme....the $500 settlement might be the cheaper way to go...just to get it behind him. Good luck eric....and let us know how things go...remember don't accept a "paid chargedoff" tradeline....negotiate hard for a complete deletion...and mentioning that you were underage at the time might help in your negotiations....$500 paid on a debt is better than $0 paid on a debt... clc
Right. I am nore inclinde to be understanding of a teenager getting into this kind of trouble than an adult who knowingly runs up debt and walks away for the heck of it. Teenagers want to be adults, They want what adults have. They start smoking and get hooked, they get a car and drive too vast, they often learn by making mistakes. Better to own up and get it straight than to continue playing games. Just learn from it. The charm that worked on the English teacher won't work anywhere sles.
haha breeze- I can honestly say I have paid my procreative dues after going through the teenage years with my daughters. I've earned every artificially colored gray hair on my head....but the happy news is that now they are 2 beautiful adult children with whom I have a great relationship....and the great news is that now I will be on the sagacious listening end when they call me with my teenage grandchildren's sagas! So if a few little credit problems are their major problems...in the grand scheme of things...no big deal. Eric is learning a valuable lesson early...and he will be the major beneficiary.... clc
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned Hi, Eric, I concur with just about everything I've read here. Here are a few of my thoughts: 1) Sometimes people are tried as adults for crimes they committed as teenagers. This occurs more often in your age group -- i.e., people who are 18, 19, 20, or 21 -- than for those whose felony occurred decades before, although as we saw in the recent Skakel case, it all depends upon the crime. Skakel allegedly killed someone for goodness sakes (which you certainly did NOT do, lol), but the point is that if the crime is extreme enough even someone in their 40s can be held completely responsible for the teenage behavior. (Sometimes even teenagers are tried as adults, for that matter.) That said, it's unlikely that anybody's going to take you to court over $3,000 in debt. So relax. You've got a mess to straighten out, but you're not likely to incur a nasty mark on your legal record. 2) That said, little discussions about whether you can be held responsible completely miss the point. Yes, you CAN be held responsible, although minor status CAN be a defense, but not in EVERY case. The point, though, is that you ARE responsible. You SHOULD be responsible. Now it is incumbent upon you to DO SOMETHING REPONSIBLE. 3) Yes, I concur with your use of the word "stupid," and I hope you've learned your lesson at an early age. Suffice to say that many of us didn't commit our stupidity until we were much older than you were (so we REALLY should have known better). Even so, you should have known better. Now you know. Endeavor to keep your life very clean for the rest of it. 4) You would be very mistaken if... wait... let me put it more strongly... YOU WOULD BE VERY MISTAKEN TO NOT TAKE THE $500 SETTLEMENT THAT WAS OFFERED TO YOU BY THE $2,800 CREDITOR. Although someone here is likely to disagree (nobody ever agrees 100% on this board, lol), please listen to me (and whoever else it was that advised the same thing earlier here): You have an opportunity to pay $500 to settle this thing. Don't be greedy. You spent the other $2,300 that you'll never have to repay if you elect to settle the debt now. Yes, you're paying a nasty collection agency; on the other hand, they LEGALLY own the debt. In this case... and this is a rare occurrence, I think, lol... but in this case, the CA stands on much firmer ethical ground than you do. Paying the $500 for a fresh start may well start you on the path to more responsible behavior throughout your adult life. This is the right thing to do. Do the right thing. 5) Don't get indignant or self-righteous with LKH or NanaC or any of the others here who are taking time out of their day to pay attention to you IN ORDER TO HELP YOU. Just because you don't like their tone of voice, tough tatas. You're a grown man now. Nobody called your [fill-in-the-blank] a ho. Nobody insulted your manhood. Nobody physically assaulted you. This is a computer discussion board, for God's sakes. Surely you've seen rougher treatment in an AOL chat room. Beef up. You did wrong. You're asking for advice and opinions. Not all the feedback will be pretty. Take it like a man in the spirit which was intended. Somebody's trying to knock your head and say, "Hello? Knucklehead? What were you thinking? If you don't stop this behavior, or if you get the idea that there are groups of adults out here who will endorse it as a way of life, you're wrong." Those people with the tones of voice you don't like are trying to shield you from an even worse time later on. Keep that in mind and listen, even when it hurts to listen. Ok, that's about it, young Eric. I certainly wish you well. I'm not confident that you have fully recovered in just a few short years from your dishonest (even felonious) tendencies. Most of us were well in our 30s before we could honestly be considered "mature" -- well, that was true for me, at least. Knowing how some 21 year old men are far from responsible doesn't give me comfort in your case. Of course I don't know you, so I hope for the best. I hope something I have written here resonates. Best to you, Doc
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned PsychDoc- I really think citing the Skakel case as an example to eric is overkill to the extreme. There have been a number of cases in the past couple of years where juveniles were tried as adults...and in every case the juvenile was tried on homicide charges not credit card abuse! Whilst I agree with you that the issue is definitely one of responsibility...in my experiences with teenagers...responsibility is many times learned after making mistakes in judgments. Sometimes that is also true of adults. As for the 2,800....eric never specified if this was the amount he charged or this was the amount total after fees and interest. I have read many posts here at creditnet and on other forums where people have settled for less than they owe...so what is good for the goat is good for the kid. I certainly don't think a young person who at 17 had a mother who was sick and was tempted by a pre-approval or whatever offer and took it is a criminal...sometimes being a tempter is as evil as being a sinner. I do agree with you that his tone in one of his posts was less than respectful and maybe an apology is required...but I also think his remarks were defensive in nature and not meant to offend. I also don't know eric personally....but by the very nature of his post...that he has called and talked with the creditors...his apparent attempt to try and reconcile his past sins, so to speak, to me is a sign that he is attempting to cure the problems...my philosophy is to give these attempts an "attaboy" and to try and guide him in the right direction. I don't believe calling people names and pointing out their mistakes over and over is a constructive method. Everyone has chimed in with their opinions....which is to try and settle....and to not do anything as foolish again....unless eric is deaf, dumb and blind...I think he has gotten the message. This is just my honest opinion.... clc
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned Here is a post I found from a member named Karen posted on February 12, 2002....I don't think this post was geared to any particular age group. clc ===================================== Negotiation strategies: 1. Don't let them know how much you have. If you say I only have $1000 to settle 10 debts, they will want it all for their debt. Tell them I have a very limited amount and can only settle one or two of my debts and I want to pay the one that will give me the best deal. 2. Be sure to mention that bankruptcy is an option you have considered. 3. Do not keep any money in your bank accounts. When I settled with NCO, the collection agent knew to the dollar how much was in my accounts. He knew more about how much I had than I did. 4. Make sure that you get a deletion of all negative info from your credit reports in exchange for settlement. After all, you are telling them you only have limited funds and if they want their share, they have to be fair to you. And, get it in writing before you send in the payment. 5. The older accounts will settle for less because they may have given up on getting anything. They will probably take less. 6. Don't let them bully you. If they don't take your offer, try again in a month or two. Once they see from your credit reports that you are settling some debts, they will get serious. I helped someone negotiate a lot of bad debt. We closed out his bank accounts and made sure there were no assets to find. I held firm. Some settled for nothing, and the average was about 20%. I think the key was to make it appear that there was nothing to be had. If you want anything, you will have to take what I am offering. If you are dealing with Sears, they will not negotiate. They were the only one who sued and we settled for 80%. If it had not been for that Sears account, the amount settled with have been more like 12% of the total owed. The guy I helped had about $75000 -$80,000 in bad credit card debt. He had $80,000 to spend. We settled for just less than $20,000. I never worried about the moral issues. He was an old guy who got screwed by the CC companies. They sold him everything they could. He was too old to travel but he had at least 5 travel clubs at about $50 per month that guaranteed him cheap travel. He had insurance on his accounts. He had life insurance. They found a sucker and milked him.
Regarding the woman who obtained a credit card for her dog... My question is: does the dog have to be 18 years old in DOG years or HUMAN years to sign a contract? Cheers
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned Umm, clc18940, did you just skim my message? I specifically said: Skakel allegedly killed someone for goodness sakes (which you certainly did NOT do, lol) I was making a different point, NOT comparing what he did to MURDER, for goodness sakes. You are a pill. Doc P.S. I guess you missed this too: "That said, it's unlikely that anybody's going to take you to court over $3,000 in debt. So relax. You've got a mess to straighten out, but you're not likely to incur a nasty mark on your legal record."
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned What????? I didn't say he wasn't respectful or that an apology is required. Please reread my post after you get a good night's sleep. Doc
I thought I would copy and paste one more post re:morality of debt posted by WhyChat just a few days ago....which I thought was extremely excellent...and WhyChat spends hours helping people not only this board but also another. I think he articulated perfectly my "in the grand scheme of things" thought clc ===================================== originally posted by WhyChat I frequently engage my fingers to the keyboard before my brain is in gear, however, in this case I did not wish to get started about what I REALLY consider obscenely immoral about credit and debt.Let me give you my SHORT list. 1- A political and economic system that encourages debt to produce sales for multinational companies that exploit 3rd world citizens ,encourages child labor and environmental polution. 2- A domestic economic policy that glorifies multi-millionaire tax evasion and corporate theft, but won't provide basic health care to it's citizens. 3- A judicial system that works to insure that wealthy business lawbreakers(like collection agencies) can trample on the righs of low and moderate income citizens and drive them further down the economic scale. 4- A political system where the citibank's and MBNA'S of the world can buy the legislation they want to contiue their obscene and IMMORAL profits. I would go on, but my fingers are wearing down.I say, if you owe a debt, and are past SOL, pay the $$ to a worthwhile charity and screw the ca's AND the cra's. That is what I call MORAL.
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned clc18940: Are you seriously asking this young man to read "negotiation strategies" and whychat's "grand scheme of things"? I just figured out that we live on different planets. I think it's time for me to get the good night's sleep. Nite, Doc
PsychDoc- I think resorting to name calling is really not productive here....I certainly have a right to my opinion....and my opinion was that even mentioning the Skakel case as an example was ludicrous...besides he didn't "allegedly"....he was found "guilty"....which means in the eyes of the law he "did"....but who am I to argue semantics. I am not going to keep defending myself here....I stand by my posts...eric is NOT a criminal...I don't believe his intent was "felonious"....I think he was a 17 year old whose mother was sick and couldn't buy him things...and who knows....maybe those things were actually things he needed...I don't know that as he didn't specify. Everyone so quick to judge...."all ye who live in glass houses...." I certainly am not going to be the one to throw stones at anyone....especially a young person who has admitted he did wrong and is trying to correct it. Let's just say "we agree to disagree" on this one....one of the rights the First Amendment affords us. And from what I can tell creditnet forum affords First Amendment rights as long as we are civil. clc
PsychDoc, eric seems like a perfectly articulate and intelligent young person to me...he certainly has demonstrated that he can read and write... I just do not understand why this young person is being dealt with so harshly....geesh he didn't kill anyone. One of the advantages of being as old as I am is that I can stay up late if I want to...;=} have a good nite, clc
LOL, nothing in the article about the dog's age. It was a good article about CCC's tactics and lack of serious underwriting. Just think if they had tried to verify income... I guess she would have said the dog worked there. Who knows... I wonder if the dog had a FICO score?
Well I knew it was gonna happen sooner or later - and I think today is the day. I'm gonna get flamed. One of the strengths of this board is that judging others isn't tolerated - and to each his own. I, like many people, am bothered by the fact that some people who have claimed BK or have charge off's have had higher scores than people who religiously paid their bills on time. But not many people bring that up - maybe out of courtesy, maybe because they don't want to get flamed or maybe becuase it's not the business of anyone other than the person involved. Or a combination. However, I think a mixed message is being sent to this young man. One one hand, yes, he definitely should fess up to what he's done - and make it right. And yup, he's getting a deal at $500. But then how many of us have had lates, or charge offs or BK's and disputed them - and they came off our reports! I've had a little moral problem with my credit repair success - and that's my issue. But my point is that the kid is reading how many people have gotten out of their debt and bad credit by playing the system. Yet becuase this is a kid, we're telling him to 'fess up' and make good on your obligation. Double Standard I think. It's okay for us adults to play the system, dodge debt, make them prove the debt is ours (even when we know darn well it is), and yet when it comes to someone younger, the general concensus is for him to clear this up with the collection agency. I just don't get it - this seems to be one of those cases of 'do as I say, not as I do'. I'm not saying that the debt shouldn't be paid - morally I believe that when you run up a debt, you'd better eat generic macaroni and cheese every night until your debt is paid if you're tight on cash. But that's just how I was raised. If my logic is flawed I am so very confident someone will correct me! <g> Ozzy.
Ozzy, Thank you for your comment...we can be "flamed" together. I really don't understand psychdoc being so condescending about this young man. I thought by posting the negotiation strategies might be a help to eric. I posted WhyChat's comments because I don't believe that this is a morality issue...if he had walked into a store with a loaded gun and said "gimme all the money"....well then we might be talking about felonious and criminal activity...but lying on a credit card app at 17 falls very short in my book. I just hope eric knows that all the methods that are available to the adults here....are also available to him. He mentioned exigent circumstances...why are his circumstances less valid than the hundreds of others I've read about here on this forum. Just my opinion.... clc
Ozzy I don't think you'll get flamed.. There has been a little behind-the-scenes discussion, and one of the factors is whether you see this as a totally premeditated commit-fraud-and-get-away-with-it-knowing-what-would-happen situation, or if the fraud was committed without intending to default and get away with it, and then he later found out. Either way, what happens as far as people's reactions is real-world experience for this 21 year old just like Mattie got when Doc gave him what-for. You're gonna get both reactions depending on how it is interpreted. I figured out a while back (a long while back) that online, people can make you believe anything. So you may think you know the whole story, but a lot of the time you don't. So I just quit worrying about the whole story and went with what they told me. So they fool me. Why should I care? That is their problem. All of it is their problem. Anybody who gets into this kind of trouble and doesn't learn their lesson has a screw loose, their elevator doesn't go all the way to the top, they need to talk to Doc on a professional basis, or they should just go ahead and become a professional con artist. IMO, he said he did it, his reasons may be true, partially true, or total falsehood. Doesn't matter. He did it. Now he wants out. Let him out. Take a swat at him, if you really have to, but help him get out. Incidentally, I think settling will be the easiest way to deal with the debt, without taking chances on getting into trouble. The underage thing will get it off his reports.
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned My major problem with Eric is the question he's asking. He wants to know if he can simply get away with not paying anything since he incurred the charges when he was 17. In other words, rather than focusing on attempting to get square with what he's done, he's focusing on what he can get away with today. Do we have a collective responsibility to this young man to help prevent his repeating this foolishness and treading down the path to even more trouble later when perhaps he has a family who depends upon his good judgment? While experience is a good teacher, sometimes TEACHERS are good teachers too. Doc
Re: Help!! Resp 4 Credit B4 Turned So, what do you suggest he do, Doc? How does he deal with it in reality? Go to them and confess, and hand over all the money? Just hand over the money? I'm not being argumentative. He said he has sent the CRA's proof of his age, so it will come off his reports either way. BTW (as you know, LOL) I'm all for confessing to individuals, but i would never "confess" to a corporation. Totally different thing. I settling an evil thing to do here?
