Intersting Federal Tax Lien dilemma

You need to find and hire one of those ex-IRS agents who has gone into the consulting business.

breeze

 

Yes I agree. You may want to contact a tax attorney. To my understanding the federal gov does not abide by the same laws that they create. I suspect that there is no statute of limitations on your taxes. I would be surprised if they would even have to refile a lien.

Good luck.
PuuOoPaul

 

First of all, you talk about their having received an assessment.

Do you or they know what a lawful assessment of taxation is?
Have they ever even been presented with a form 423-C?

If they have never been presented with either of these documents then they have never been lawfully assessed a tax.

This has been judicially determined by 4 different federal judges. One of those famous landmark cases is in Radinski v U.S. 10th Cir Court of Appeals 1964.in which Federal Judge Richard Matsch ruled that Radinski did not have standing to sue the IRS because he was not a taxpayer never having been lawfully assessed a tax by the IRS.

Fact of the matter is that no American Citizen has ever been properly assessed via a lawful assessment of taxation. Therefore those you mention have never been lawfully assessed a tax.

Another fact is that IRS tax liens are not tax liens, they are "notices of liens" since none have ever been adjudged in a court of law. All that happens is that the IRS goes to the county court house in which their victim resides and files a "notice of tax lien" and goes out unlawfully seizing property.

Another fact is that all seizures are done by dint of the fact that they classify their victim as being involved in illegal commerce such as drug peddlers, drug smugglers, makers of illicit firearms or manufacturers of spirits or other illegal activities. This is done through their IMF file which the victim is never allowed to see unless mandated to produce by court order.

By first using the ruse of classifying their intended victim as a criminal conducting an unlicensed criminal activity, they then gain the legal right to seize funds or property
without necessity of going through normal legal channels.

What activity did they engage in that would have been classified as "taxable income" in the first place? They need to demand a copy of their IMF file in order to find out what activity they were supposedly engaged in that fell within the category of "taxable income."

What is even worse is that no American citizen has ever paid one crying dime of income tax to the federal government!

What happens is that the IRS demands that each and every citizen voluntarily assess themselves a tax and place on deposit with the Treasury of the United States of America a deposit equal to the amount of the estimated tax in the event that they might be assessed a tax for that year.. That deposit remains in a trust fund for 3 years after which time the government takes the deposit by virtue of the fact that the amount of taxation voluntarily placed on deposit was not contested and can therefore be legally deemed to have been forfeited.

Nice fair tax system we have, isn't it?

But guess what? It is a federal felony for any government employee to demand any sum of money or any thing of value from an American citizen absent a lawful assessment of taxation. The penalty is 5 years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

When will people wake up and realize that we are a nation of laws and all must obey the law, and that includes our government, our nations business community (including creditors, collection agencies, and credit bureaus) and ourselves. Demanding that government and every one else obey the law in it's entirety only helps insure that we do not become an anarchy nor a dictatorship and guarantees both our God given and government granted rights, freedoms and liberties.

Our constitution does not grant us any rights or priviledges, it only guarantees that government shall not trample on our God given rights. But if we do not force them to live by the law, then we have no rights at all.

Does anyone believe that I pull some black magic stunt out of a tall black hat while waving a white wand over the top in order to force credit bureaus to remove negative items from one's credit bureau files?

Does anyone believe that I stir some magic witch's brew and cast magic spells in order to force creditors to forgive one's debts totally and completely?

Surely not, for all of us know that such is not a possibility. All I do is force them to obey the law and pay for their transgressions against the law when I catch them in disobeyance of the law.

That's all there is to it unless one wants to "spam" them to death by writing countless letters full of half-truths, outright lies and false claims of innocence, and I don't play those games, and quite frankly I don't think anyone else should either.

I hold myself to a higher moral standard than that.

So should our government. We all know that government performs valuable service for us every day of our lives and beyond. We also know that in order to perform those valuable services they need money and tons of it, but is it too much to ask that they obey the law while in the process of collecting the needed funds with which to defend our shores from all enemies or to build and maintain our nation's physical infrastructure or to chase down, capture, try and convict those who transgress against the law?

I don't think so. Do you?

 

Well, Bill, thanks for that lengthy reply. Too bad it didn't answer my question. I always get the feeling in your responses that you're hawking something.

Too bad you didn't understand or want to accept what I told you. And yes, I am guilty of hawking something and what I was trying to "hawk" to you is the fact that the folks you are talking about never owed any tax in the first place and that the penalties put on them are also fraudulent as well and the liens against their property or accounts are illegal on top of that.
-------

To my understanding the federal gov does not abide by the same laws that they create.

That's exactly what I tried to tell you but you either didn't want to understand or could not understand,whichever.

They are not abiding by the laws but worse they often invent their own laws without benefit of legislation and use force of power to enforce them. They often use BATF to enforce their rules. BATF has no jurisdiction or legal power to enforce matters of taxation unless it somehow relates to ALCOHOL, TOBACCO OR FIREARMS. That's why they are named BATF.

So in order to use BATF enfocement powers, they classify people as being employed in the illegal manufacture, sale or possession of Alcohol, Drugs, Tobacco or Fire Arms. I know one lady who successfully got her IMF file and suddenly learned she was a manufacturer of revolvers. She is actually a secretary at the same automobile auction I was working at for a while this year. That's why the IRS don't want to let people see their IMF files.

Their liens are never adjucated in a court of law. That's because they could never withstand the scrutiny of a federal judge and jury defended by an attorney who would actually dare to use the right legal processes to discover and argue these matters. No lawyer wants to do that. Far too much time and trouble to learn how to do that.

I suspect that there is no statute of limitations on your taxes.

Once they get their illegally gotten liens, I don't think there is either.

I would be surprised if they would even have to refile a lien.

Me too. But it would be no problem for them to do so if they actually had to.

Now then, why don't you tell those folks that what they should do is to contact any one of dozens of folks who are qualified to get them out of their mess and give them some relief. I know a lot of people scattered around the country who are fighting these matters all the time.

But one of the first things they ought to do is to go down and demand that the IRS provide them with an actual certified copy of their LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION. Demand that until such time as they have been provided with a LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION, all collections efforts cease.

A LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION is a specific legal document that has 7 specific indices upon it's face. And it must have been signed by a lawfully appointed assessment officer prior to the filing of the liens, not after.

And they should learn what those 7 indices are, what the IRS form 423-c is and looks like. They should learn what are the legal requirements are for filing any lien. An IRS lien is not a lien. it is a "notice of lien" and it says so right on the lien. A "notice of lien" is not a lien. Yet it is enforced as though it were a lien.

They should learn that absent a LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION no tax is due or owed and they should learn how to put the IRS agent attempting to collect or inforce the illegal liens that demanding any sum of money or thing of value from a citizen absent a LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION is a felony offense and that the IRS officer doing the demanding is a criminal and no different than any other criminal. It's in the law. It's there for anyone to see, read and use.

What I'm trying to hawk is that if you don't know your rights under the law then you don't have any. What I am trying to hawk is that ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

And what I'm trying to hawk is that if one is not willing to take the time and trouble to learn the law then he is just going to have to suffer the consequences.

There is lots of help out there and most of it is free for the studying. That's what I'm trying to hawk. Learn something and make the law work for you.

And if you don't know the law and don't want to stand up and fight then don't whimper when the IRS steamroller comes down your alley because all that's going to happen is that you are going to get smashed flatter than a stomped on bug.


What I'm also hawking is the concept that the we live in a nation where everyone must obey the law and that includes our government and it's minions too.

Are you buying or are you just gonna squawk because the price is too high??

 

You know, Shirley, you have just told and taught me a whole lot. And like you, I'm not sure I know how to deal with it.

I might be wise in a lot of ways and to damned dumb to walk and chew gum at the same time in other ways. Obviously you have just pointed out one of my many faults. I'm going to have to see what I can do to deal with it.

But let us continue.
********************************
I am also not in a position to pay you or anyone else to dazzle me with legalese that I have no hope of comprehending to the degree that I can just march right in and demand this and that from the Internal Revenue Service. If it comes to the point where I have to pay for advice, I will pay an attorney, not a condescending poster on a message board.

It was not my intention to dazzle you with a lot of legalese and if you go pay an attorney you will get exactly what you pay for if you are indeed lucky. And I can assure you that you will like what you get from an attorney a whole lot less than what you will get from some condescending poster on a message board. Attorneys are fine in some situations, and in others, they are not so fine to say the least. Some of them are and I can refer you to such attorneys as Larry Becraft over in Alabama or Georgia (whichever) I'll even give you his phone number and he will most definitely either take your case or he will refer you to someone else such as Thurston Bell or other fine attorneys who do know the tax laws and how to effectively fight the IRS and win.And I'll post his phone number right here so you can call him and talk to him. And he won't pay me any commissions for having referred you to him either.

My only question was can I get the lien removed from the credit report if the debt from which the lien was filed doesn't exist anymore?

You should be able to do that quite easily, but in order to do so you might have to go back to the creditor or collection agency who filed the lien and ask them to get the lien removed from the court records. That's not hard for them to do. Or you might have to go down and prove to the court that the debt does not exist anymore and make demand of the court that they officially remove the lien. That's the way I would go at it. You always need to go to the source of the problem to get the problem resolved. The source of the problem in this case is the person or company who filed it. That will be your first "administrative remedy" and failing there, you can go to the court and file demand with the court for it's removal since you would have then exhausted all of your "administrative remedies." And yes, that's legalese, but that's the way it's referred to.

You have to exhaust all your administrative remedies before going to court.

If you have any specific information for that situation or how that could be done-- in layman's terms-- I'd love to hear it. If you're not willing ot divulge it without compensation, why post on a help board?

I didn't ask for, "hawk for" or even hint about compensation. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a para-legal and I'm not qualified to give legal advice or charge for it either.

I just have a little more familiarity with and understanding of the basics of how the law works and in some situations how to make the law work for the common man who like you and I are not legal professionals.

Your responses were, quite frankly, way over my head. I can admit that comfortably. Berate me for that and keep your nose in the stratosphere if you will.

I have no intention of berating you at all. Sorry if I gave (give) that impression. This stuff about the law and how it works can get way over the heads of most people real quick. It just seems to launch into outer space real quick and loses the average person as well as the not-so-average faster than they can assimulate it. So just like anything else, you have to fight back by trying to reduce things to their "lowest common denominator." In otherwords, what does or does not make common sense and let all the legalese go until you can hope to get a grasp on at least some of it.

Our constitution and our laws were and are primarily based on what man perceives to be God's will and the concepts of simple justice for all. It's a crying shame it takes ten million laws to enforce ten commandments, but that's about what it takes these days.

I've learned tons from this board and others about the credit world due to helpful posters who speak concisely and in terms everyone can understand and don't belittle those who cannot read and understand complex legal statutes.

Quite often, those who speak so concisely do so to the point that they leave out those things which are so important to the success of what they teach. The speak so concisely that they actually reveal only a small part of what is necessary to get the job done. The "listener" then all too often goes off to put into practice what they saw on the board and find out the hard way that the poster did not give them vital information that they needed to make the idea work in practice.

That fault too is perfectly understandable if you stop to think about it. After all, you just asked a simple question and you got a simple answer. But did you get the complete answer, and most likely you did not.

Too bad we don't live in a perfect world, isn't it?

You have a nice one and I do hope I have helped you.

And I'm sorry if I seem to have my nose in the stratosphere.
It isn't my intention to be like that at all.

 

Shirley, I have the same problem with Bill's posts. It's not that it's over our heads. We are intelligent people. It's just that it's exhausting to try to follow all the circles & pick out the main points.
Bill, take note. Please. Get to the point. It's tiring to try to figure out what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to be mean.

 

Shirley, I am in the same boat in regards to tax liens. I have several liens that will start hitting the 10 year point late in 2002 and continue through late 2004. I am currently paying a small monthly payment to the IRS (not even enough to cover interest) and am also trying to get a definite answer on the 10 year clause. My accountant claims that there is a paper that the IRS will ask you to sign when they make the assessment. This paper basically lets the IRS go beyond the 10 year period to collect but you would of have to had signed a waiver. The IRS doen't always ask for this waiver. In my case, I'm fairly certain that I never signed it. Also, in the case of 10,000, an offer in compromise might be in order. Here is a link to answer some of your questions:


http://www.irstax.com/irslien.htm


Iv

 

Nursie & others.

No, I have not taken your posts to be mean or disparaging at all.

You both bring out valid points about faults of mine that are apparent to others, but not so apparent to me.

I do a bit of writing, but in an entirely different media where anything less than "full disclosure" in terms of descriptions would be considered "rude" and unacceptable.
In that media, all are or are presumed to be highly skilled people and would be totally bored with less.

It's a whole different ball game here and I need to "get street wise" instead of carrying one writing style over to another area. Shift gears, so to speak.

I always appreciate constructive criticism so long as that's what it is and not "put downs" or flames.

"Shifting gears" is something I'm going to have to learn how to do, I guess. At least to some extent.

Thanks so much for our comments.

They are appreciated.

 

DON'T DO AN OFFER IN COMPROMISE UNLESS

YOU 'RE REALLY DESTITUTE, IT'S EXTREMELY

COMPLICATED, & YOU WILL HAVE TO LIVE

THRU YEARS OF SCRUTINY BY THE IRS;

I KNOW SOMEONE WHO DID, AND THEY WISH THEY

DIDN'T, IT'S A MAJOR HASSLE, BY THE WAY,

IRS CAN CHECK ALL CREDIT BUREAUS @ ANY

TIME WITHOUT SHOWING INQUIRIES!!!!!!!

YOU WON'T EVEN KNOW THEY ARE WATCHING YOUR

SPENDING.

LAWYERS WILL PUSH THIS AS EASY LOOPHOLE,

BUT IT'S VERY TRICKY.

 

OK!

Please take note of what you typed and what the document says upon it's face!

It is not a lien, it is a notice of lien.
Now then, here I go, getting technical and way over people's heads again. But there is no remedy!

IT IS NOT A LIEN, IT IS A NOTICE OF LIEN. There is a major difference and that major difference is that a lien is a legal device that has been adjucated in a court of law.

A notice of lien is not, never has been nor ever will be adjucated in a court of law.

And there is a very solid legal reason why it is not a lien, never has been nor ever will be adjucated in a court of law and that solid legal reason is that you never owed a tax in the first place for the very simple reason that you were never assessed a tax with a LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION.

The law is very specific about that.

ABSENT A LAWFUL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION, NO TAX IS DUE OR PAYABLE AND ANY ATTEMPT BY ANY GOVERNMENT AGENT TO COLLECT SUMS OF MONEY OR THING OF VALUE ABSENT A LAWFULL ASSESSMENT OF TAXATION IS A FELONY OFFENSE ON THE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE MAKING SUCH DEMANDS.

The fact is that no action taken by IRS is legal or will withstand a proper attack in a court of law on those issues.

In the first place, ANY PAPER YOU SIGN UPON REQUEST OF THE GOVERNMENT HAS ONE PURPOSE AND ONE PURPOSE ONLY AND THAT IS TO DEPRIVE YOU OF YOUR FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

Once you have signed any document demanded by IRS or any other governmental agency, you have just given up your 5th amendment rights.

Let us look at the 5th Amendment to the Constitution to see what it says.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service, in time of War, or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence, to be twice pu in jeopardy of life or limb; NOR SHALL BE COMPELLED, IN ANY CRIMINAL CASE, TO BE A WITNESS AGAINST HIMSELF, NOR BE DEPRIVED OF LIFE, LIBERTY , OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW; NOR SHALL PRIVATE PROPERTY BE TAKEN FOR PUBLIC USE WITHOUT JUST COMPENSATION.

Now then, the last part. NOR BE DEPRIVED OF LIFE, LIBERTY OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW.

Did your "notice of tax lien" give you or deny you DUE PROCESS OF LAW??? Did you or did you not receive a fair hearing on the matter in a court of law??

Of course you did not. So you have been denied your 5th amendment rights to due process of law.

Now then, Let us look at what the Supreme Court has said.

In Marbury v Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 173,176,(1803), The supreme court ruled that "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."

IN Miranda v Arizona 384,U.S. 436, 491, 1966 the Supreme Court ruled, "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."

Going further

In McCulloch v. Maryland 17 U.S. 316, 421 (1819) they ruled, "Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the constitution, are constitutional"

In American Communications Association v. Douds, 339 U.S. 382, 442, 1950, they ruled "It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the Government from falling into error"

In Sumner v. Beeler 50 Ind 341,342, (1875), They ruled, "All persons are presumed to know the law, and if they act under an unsconstitutional enactment of the legislature, they do so at their peril and must take the consequences."

So that's the way it is. That's the way it operates. And if you the citizen want it any different, then it is you the citizen who must act to protect yourself from the government and the only way to do that is to know the law, know what your rights are and defend them vigorously at their slightest encroachment.

If you don't know your rights, then you don't have any.

And yes, I know that I am telling you and others what you do not want to hear. You want an easy out, but there is none when it comes to IRS and their totally illegal machinations designed to deprive you of your hard earned money, your property, your freedoms and sometimes even your life.

You either stand up and fight or you lie down and whimper about it like a whipped pup.

I'll just run a little test to show how few people understand our government or it's history.

I'll bet that there is not one person out there reading this post who can tell me who was the first president of the United States and get it right. And I'll go even further and bet that there isn't one person out there who can name the first 7 presidents of the United States in order of their succession to the presidency and get it right.

Study the Constitution. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislatures, and enforced in courts of justice. Abraham Lincoln.