Since this won't go away, I want to put in my 2 cents. I am a Christian and basically believe what my church teaches. But, I do have a couple problems. My Aunt Ethel was the kindest person you could ever meet. I seriously doubt anyone ever said a bad word about her in her 90+ years. Everyone liked her. She took in my dad for a couple years when he was very sick with a childhood disease and contagious (so he could not be near other kids). When she was 65, she went to work as a volunteer at a hospital full time and worked there 25 years (until she died) free of charge. My point is that I have a hard time believing she is in hell because she was not a Christian.
I also couldn't resist responding to this post as I am a philosophy major, and take an interest in the philosophy of religion, as well as existentialism. I myself cannot believe that an all knowing and loving God could send a decent person to hell. Certainly if I, a simple human can forgive someone who wronged me can God do any less? Additionally as a human, presumably flawed I can love someone enough to not want to see harm come to them, how is it that a supposedly more loving God would happily inflict that harm by sending them to hell? I don't buy it, but if religious beliefs help people to live better lives I certainly don't have a problem with it, and I won't deny that some people patch up their lives with it, and become better people, I just don't believe that it is necessary to be moral, or to avoid hell. Hell itself is problematic, because if I'm not mistaken the use was taken from the name of a town (?) called Gehena, reputed to be a pretty vile place. Finally if someone can answer this question, I'll sign up on the religious bandwagon. Can God make a rock he cannot lift?
So, does that mean the person doesn't really know that he or she doesn't know? [/B][/QUOTE] 'ya know, Marci: That's a solipsism if I've ever seen one....... ;-) Dancer
According to the teachings of the Jesuit's I know, the answer is:Yes. The trick being that, according to their belief system, there exists no force more powerful than divine will. Therefore, if God CHOOSES to create a rock he cannot lift, it will come into being and remain unmovable as long as he CHOOSES to allow it to exist in that state. Welcome Aboard! Dancer
So what about evil nasty people? I.e: No human decency. They're still supposedly made in the image of God. No, I don't buy your argument. And history shows that many religious populations and individuals have missed the respective points of their own religions. -ingenue
All right. I felt compelled to plunge in once again. Like the original poster, the #1 reason for my credit (and any other) success is God. I want to be a good steward(ess) of the $$ he's given me, which is where creditnet, among other resources, play a role. Even if you don't ascribe to a particular religion, we ALL have a consciense. But we sometimes say that someone has none after repeatedly violating his conscience. Originally posted by sweet21510 I cannot believe that an all knowing and loving God could send a decent person to hell. Hell was created for demons (former good angels who sought to exalt themselves above the Almighty). When people also reject God, unfortunately they will suffer the same fate (eternal separation). That's why the Bible says (paraphrasing) hell has enlarged since its creation. Certainly if I, a simple human can forgive someone who wronged me can God do any less? You've got that backwards. We love because he first loved us. He created us in his image to have intimate, flawless fellowship with us. He loves the sinners but hates our sin. Additionally as a human, presumably flawed, I can love someone enough to not want to see harm come to them, how is it that a supposedly more loving God would happily inflict that harm by sending them to hell? Presumably flawed? I'm sure you were being facetious Humor me. Pretend for a moment you're the Holy God. What is possibly good enough payment for a transgression? All our human (self)righteousness is as filthy rags before him. The last thing on is mind is waiting for us to mess up so he can press the Hell button & pulverize us. Instead of fairness (sending us ALL to hell), he gives us mercy, the payment of Christ for our sins. You accept Christ, you have life, you reject him, you have eternal death, which is defined in the Bible as complete separation from God. I don't believe that it is necessary to be moral, or to avoid hell. What is the basis of your morality? Yourself? Your parents? Your culture? Your philosophy professor? Without an unshifting moral base, we have no right to accuse Bin Laden, Hitler, Mussolini & countless others of being immoral, because they have chosen for themselves what is morally acceptable.
I am watching and reading with great interest. I am surprised that this thread has gone on the way it has. To Killer, Rina, Love and Marci . . . thank you. To Dani and Doc you have been lifted up in prayer to my God. I've never really thought about it but it is sort of funny. I can pray for you even if you don't like it. And know what else.. I have shared some of your posts with some Christian girlfriends they are praying for you too. One of my girlfriends reminds me," Blessed are those who are persucuted for HIS name's sake... I am not going to try to PREACH.. but I will not back down from my beliefs. I will continue to give GOD the GLORY! I am sorry if that offends anyone. About the First Amendment .. Do I need to remind us that it was written over 200 years ago by CHRISTIAN LEADERS who sought freedom to worship GOD( the one true GOD) vs. that of a monarch king? Why do we let most everyone speak their minds (siting the 1st) without persecusion EXCEPT Christians? To Thomas .. you and I both know there is only one way to heaven.. through Jesus.. the way, the truth and the life. I urge you to speak to your pastor or other Christian that can help you. I recently had the same struggle with someone that I love dearly. I think we hide behind that "auntie so and so, cousin, sister, father ... was the best, sweetest thing that ever was to walk this earth would she really go to hell? God is a loving GOD, but he is also JUST. If we are believers, must we not believe entirely? Cherie
Proof that God is a he, not a she: no PMS moodswings, otherwise, we'd get zapped by lightning @ least once a day! P.S.: please, this is only a joke; don't reprimand me
Rina.. We must have been writing at the same time. You are well written. Thank you for speaking up in HIS honor. I never expected such a response. It reminds me that we are living in a world in which so many are lost. I hope you will join me in praying for those that I've mentioned. For now.. I am off the computer to the table for a quick bite to eat then out to church for particiaption and help in our Easter Drama. In HIM Cherie
Cherie, what in the world gave you the idea that I wouldn't like it if you prayed for me? I don't mind that at all. I'll pray for you too! Doc
I always thought it was best to have some religion be it CHRISTIAN, JEWISH, MORMAN, MUSLIM, BUDDHIST anything, just not atheist, agnostic, or my favorite the freedom from religion crowd.
Cherie, one more thing! Don't I get thanked too along with Killer, Rina, Love and Marci? After all, I spoke out vociferously in favor of you're being allowed to express your thoughts and feelings here. Plus I disagreed with Dani that your posting was off-topic! Even though I am Jewish, I did speak out for you. (Surely you didn't withhold your thanks because I'm Jewish -- dont' tell me that, lol.) Ok, I just wanted to cast my vote in your favor again. I'm very happy for you regarding the terrific influence your faith has had in your life. Doc
I guess you could call me a "Recovering" Christian. I pray every night before going to bed, I hold quiet conversations him all the time, but not like those dudes that walk down the street talking loudly I'm been considered a good-hearted person, yet I'm not very good in regards to following all the commandments. Here's hoping that when my time comes God will look at me and say "You meant well you big screw up! Get in here and grab your mitt. Babe Ruth needs one more player to get a game going." GT
good answer but that assumes that he could lift it all along, he just chose not to. This is metaphysically different from being incapable of lifting it.
I checked my post and realized that is NOt what i meant to say lol. I meant to say i don't believe it is necessary to be a christian to avoid hell. I also meant to say that i didn't think it was necessary to be a christian or really any other faith to be a moral upright person. I DO think it is necessary to be moral. I was posting this right before a class and got distracted so i hope you can forgive the way it came accross. I'm not a terrible person that tortures animals, and generally I like everyone regardless of their beliefs, as long as they don't hurt another. It scares me how that mistyping must have come accross As far as hell is concerned, i don't believe in hell, and as I said before the concept of hell came into existence based on a place called Gehena. As far as Christ being my savior, I see way to many inconsistencies between the old and new testament to be able to believe in this. Some people say I lack faith, but I consider myself to be rational (usually lol) and to believe something simply because there is the fear of going to hell is simply irrational. Certainly I don't have an objection to others beliefs, but they are simply not for me. I believe in a monotheistic god myself, and the trinity is inconsistent in my view of that belief.
dang of the people in this thread i didn't even rank prayer for my ways LOL, oh well, my advisor warned me what it would be like to be a philosopher
Lifting it is a physical concept. Considering that the popular conception is that God (he/she/it/they/we take your pick) is believed to permeate the entire universe, how would God move the rock away from himself? What would be your point of reference? And do you know of any colleges that grant degrees in metaphysics? Dancer
