Its so important ...

Well, I think my problem with the fossils is that they are very much older than 6000 years. I also feel like you cannot take the bible literally, there are way to many contradictions throughout.

 

I also live in Virginia

 

I've been off this thread for awhile but just got a chance to catch up.

Some of the views raised here are very interesting, but I think the most vauable point raised is when someone mentioned how neat it was that we could "discuss" opposing viewpoints without "arguing". A sign of a healthy mind is the ability to accept new information. Great stuff.

For what it's worth, I'm in the "can't take it literally" camp. There are way to many metaphors and outdated colloquialisms in the bible for it to be interpreted literally. I alluded to the "Camel through the eye of the needle" allegory earlier. I've met people who believe that that reference refers to a literal sewing needle (meaning impossible) rather than the "eye of the needle" meaning the foot gate at the entrance to a walled city.

Once they closed the merchant's gate for the day, the only way into the city was through the foot gate which was only 5 foot high, and impossible for a mounted raider to ride through. If a merchant wanted to enter the city with a camel loaded with goods, he had to unload the camel, get it down on it's knees, convince it to shuffle through the gate, (or more likely drag it with many kicks and curses), get it back on it's feet and then reload the beast. If you've never been around camels, they're not the most civil of animals. Somebody was sure to get bitten or kicked. Mind you, all this was happening while everyone else on foot was waiting to use the gate too. Everyone of that age knew exactly what a pain in the butt this was. It was sort of like saying:"Harder than crossing the George Washington Bridge on I-95 at 5PM on Friday of Labor Day weekend."

This sort of allegory and metaphor permeates the bible, so I don't believe you can take it literally.

Dancer

PS: Don't even get me started on Lot's wife........

 

well, I live in central virginia near Jerry Falwell, beyond that I don't feel like I know you well enough to tell might exact location, though you seem like a nice enough person I hope you can understand. I've been stalked before, though nothing came of it, it was pretty nerve wrecking.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

Sounds like political correctness to me. Would you have said the same thing to an Islamic person?

Are you saying that Christians may practice their first amendment rights provided itâ??s behind closed doors?

This country, our republic (yes Republic not democracy there is a difference) was based on Christian/ Jewish principals. These are the principals that allow you your view and your right to express it. It appears to me that you do not feel that these first amendment rights should extend to Christians.

This is the General Lounge.

Would you have been able to make a similar statement about islam in say Saudi Arabia? As I stated earlier, this country was formed on Christian/ Jewish principals. Anyone coming here should be aware of that and if they feel they will be offended they can stay home. They need to acclimate to our culture not vice versa.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

Mike,

To begin with this topic was started in the Credit Lounge, I felt it would be better if it was moved to the General Lounge. So that point that this discussion is in the General Lounge is irrelevant.

I am a firm believer in political correctness - this pertains to everyone. My views are expressed towards Christians, Jews, and Islamics, as it is with all people. Would you go up to a handicapped person and call them a retard? (I really hate that word). Or how about someone who is overweight, would you call them a fat pig? We live in a politically correct nation (mind you, not world). And I believe if someone may feel excluded or ostracized it is my right to speak up for them.

Your focus that this country was based on Christian/Jewish principles...my response is no, only Christian principles. For the longest time this country was made to look down on those who had a different belief system than their own. We characterized people by color, nationality, religion, and gender and made them feel inferior. This country is/was established, governed, and is currently run by the white, middle aged, Christian male with money.

Dani

PS No offensive intended for any white, middle aged Christian men, so please no hate mail.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

Sorry, but I have a few more comments that I would like to make. I am not as articulate as many of you on here and lack the ability to adequately express myself with the written word so I will keep it short and simple and even then I risk my point being lost. Despite my poor expressive language skills I am a college graduate, with honors, and have had training in the hard sciences. I have always had a strong belief in God and nothing in my training has ever led me to change that belief. In fact, it has reinforced that belief. I am not alone in that conviction, many physicists, and astronomers, among other scientist are now professing a belief in God. Even those who do not admit a belief in God will concede an Intelligent Design in the universe. Nothing in science precludes the existence of God, creation actually fills in a lot of holes. The study of science does not mean you cannot be a Christian. Science should be viewed as a tool. A tool to improve our lives and explore the miracles of Godâ??s creations.

As for the philosophical arguments that many will make I am not qualified to argue these points, I do not know all the answers. But, taking a philosophical standpoint I know I that I do not have to know all the answers. I simply have faith and believe without seeing or knowing all the answers to all the questions that may arise.

As I have already stated, I am not qualified to make any philosophical arguments but consider the following.

2000 years ago the earth was a barbaric place. Few persons had any sort of what today we would call education. People were killed for the smallest offense by the most brutal means then possible, stoning, or being nailed to a cross and left to die.
Killing seemed to be considered an entertainment by many and when reading descriptions of the period it seems that they were often looking for any excuse to commit one. Why then, would a religion, based on peace and love of others arise out of such a society if not for divine intervention? Could such a society as existed 2000 years ago develop a philosophy so advanced that even today it is still applicable to our lives.


I know that I lack the ability to convert anyone, though certainly I might like to. I also realize that the points I am trying to make may be lost in this rambling assortment of thoughts. The best I can hope for is that some of you non-believers will reconsider for just a moment and really give a much closer examination to the case for God. Science does not prohibit the existence of God and anyone who tells you that is not practicing good science.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

You have your right to express your views and beliefs. I truly respect them. At the same time I have the right (and so do non believers, or believers of other religions) to express my/their rights. The problem I have with religion (as with many things), is that people (non believers and believers) feel it their right to shove it down someone's throat even though that person does not wish to hear it. I am not referring to this message board because I truly believe we are having a simple discussion on the subject, a la meeting of the minds but life in general. When (some) people truly believe in something they do not respect the beliefs of others and do not allow them their freedom of expression.

Eg. Some church members go door to door to solicit their church and gain new members. Someone says their not interested. The church members ask why. The person states that they do not believe in a divine being. The church members then argue to the "non believer" that she/he is going to hell and is doing everything in their mind to convert this one individual. Now, if the individual (non believer) said they were Jewish or Buddist the church members may have nodded disapprovingly, but they would have gone on their way. Why should the "non believer" be treated any differently. Why must church members continue to visit the house in hoping to "convert" this person? Are they not trespassing on this person's property, as well as, personal beliefs? Should they not be accountable for that?

This is just an example, and no one should feel in any way that I do not believe that ALL people should have the freedom of speaking their mind. It could be a group of non believers trying to "convert" a believer. I just used the above as an example.

I truly believe we need to respect all human beings right to religious expression. We may not agree with what they choose, but we must respect it nevertheless. I have no problem with discussion I believe it is a great way to exchange ideas and to open one's mind, but when that freedom turns into harassment or making someone feel inadequate I have to put my foot down.

Dani

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

Thanks Cherie

PS I did not mean to sound smug with the remark about a degree. I had seen several comments in the various postings regarding evolution, age of fossils, etc. It is a pet peeve of mine when people use science in an attempt to invalidate God. Science cannot make such a claim, though I realize that many do. My intent was to show that there are people, trained in the hard sciences, that do believe. I do not value or judge people based on their level of education.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

Yes, I seem to recall that one of the guys at work had a recent book by him, "The Evolution Myth", not sure. I have not read it yet but understand its very well done.

 

Cherie-
I don't understand why you would pray for someone that doesn't want you to. Wouldn't your prayer and time be better spent for someone who wants it?

I'm not any type of religion buff, but I tend to agree with most of what Dani has said here. Just because Dani is not Christian doesn't mean her "soul is lost". Some people prefer not to disclose their religion, not because they are ashamed of it, but religion and politics don't mix well with friends and family.

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

That was the 'peacemaker' side of me speaking (typing, LOL). I hate bickering, especially over religion and beliefs. To each his own. We'll find out the truth someday...

 

Re: Its so important ...Omnipotent

I guess it is a pet peeve of mine too that Christians attempt to use science to validate claims of God or the earth being younger than it is...citing examples all completely contrary to known methods of carbon dating and Geology, amongst other scientific disciplines. I've checked out Ken Ham...none of his "evidence" uses any sort of believable scientific method, and are all easily disputed.

Simply because people don't buy into the earth being 6000 years old or the bible being literal does not necessarily mean that person doesn't believe in God. The existence or non-existence of God simply cannot be proved either way, but is a matter of personal belief.

 

refuting creationism site...

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/