Letter from CA, after val letter...

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by snakeman, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Ingham Emergency Physicians $190.00

    Recently there was an inquiry on your credit file and the above was reported as unpaid. Your immediate payment in full will greatly increase the possibility that you can obtain the credit you seek.

    Please pay in full or contact our office today.

    Mid-Michigan Collection Bureau

    Now I sent out a validation letter to them which they received on Sept 11th, and a dispute to all three CRA's.

    This is the only response I have received so far from this CA. I'm not going to waste yours or my time asking how did they know I applied for credit. What I want to know is if this is legal. I mean, if I sent them a validation letter and this is the next letter I get from them, it seems like they have violated the FDCPA with continued collection activity. The letter states at the bottom "This is an attempt to collect a debt....yada yada yada."

    Funny thing is, this letter listed only one of the debts they are collecting. Their are two others and the totals for all three are $550.00

  2. Melissap1

    Melissap1 Well-Known Member

    It's continued collection, but did you ask for validation on ALL the accounts? Are they trying to sneak another one in?
  3. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    No, I asked for validation on 4 accounts. 1 of which was paid off and the other three show still owed.

    I am working two posts here, the mail lady had a lot of goodies for me today! But any help as to my next step would be appreciated.

  4. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member


    I get so excited when I know they screwed up that I make stupid mistakes. I called the lady in charge at this CA and reasoned with her that she should settle.

    I told her that I had a violation and she said no you don't. She stated that the accounts had been paid on since being placed with her CA and that constitutes acknowledgment of the debts as mine. Therefore we didn't need to respond to your validation letter. I said you don't have to respond but you can't continue to collect unless you do.

    I am so dumb for calling her. I know I didn't screw up by admitting anything but I realized just how smart these people are. Just when you think you got 'em BAM! they sneak around the side and get ya!

    I need your help!! Where is Jlynn when I need her?

  5. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    When I looked at the FDCPA today, in section 809b it says...

    If the consumer notifies the debt collector in writing within the thirty day period described in subsection A that the debt or any portion thereof is disputed or that the consumer requests the name and address of the original creditor, the debt collector shall cease collection of the debt or any disputed portion thereof until the debt collector obtains verification of the debt or any copy of a judgment or the name and address of the original creditor and a copy of such verification or judgment or name and address of the original creditor is mailed to the consumer by the debt collector.

    It pretty much says that you can only have the protection of this law if you dispute within 30 days of the first correspondence from the CA. If you see this differently than I do, please read the section before this section and reply to me your thinking on this subject.

  6. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Goose Bump!
  7. jam237

    jam237 Well-Known Member

    SnakeMan, yes and no...

    The law also says that by not requesting validation within 30 days, you do not lose any rights, and they can't use the fact that you didn't request validation against you in court.

    How would that affect the CAs that are out there that don't do letters, don't call, just send a form to the 3 CRAs and wait idlly for the consumer to pull their credit report, and notice their new entry.

    Hey, they didn't contact us within 30 days of us slithering onto their credit report, they lost all their rights... he he he...
  8. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    No I think you missed my point.


    Get my point? It is widely accepted in this forum that consumers can dispute any debt to a CA anytime.

    According to the FDCPA, this is not true.

    Read section 809 of the FDCPA A through C. If I'm not right please explain why.

    I have just learned this today after reading the FDCPA and an FTC opinion letter.

    My point to all this? I have sent out validation letters to a lot of CA's. These debts are at least a couple years old. If I'm right (and I don't want to be), then my opportunity to validate and be afforded the protection of the FDCPA section 809b is gone.

    The protection afforded to a consumer is stopping any continued collection when they get your dispute....but only within that 30 days.

    See my point?

  9. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Goose Bump.

    Sorry to sound like the ugly girl around 3 in the morning after you promise you'll call but this is really important to me. Please provide me with any and all expertise you can muster.


  10. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

  11. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    I guess my question here doesn't deserve an answer.

    Maybe it's too confusing. I really need to know what to do so I will pose my question a new way.

    The FDCPA states that validation must take place within thirty days of the first communication from a collection agency.

    Question: What about after thirty days?

    FTC opinion letter: You would not be afforded protection under section 809b if you asked for validation AFTER the thirty days.

    What this means: We are trying to have the collection agency violate the FDCPA in many different ways. This particular way for me is with continued collection activity. However, I recently sent a validation letter to the CA. This debt however is a couple years old. Meaning, my thirty days is up. I may ask for validation, but if they do or don't is meaningless because if they send a letter for money, that is not considered continued collection. I gave that right up the first time they sent a demand for payment.

    Does this make sense? When you read the FDCPA sections I mentioned, it would seem so.

  12. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member


    Have you studied the --> What Is Validation! thread listed in my sig line?

  13. connorw

    connorw Well-Known Member

    snakeman -- Do they have proof that they contacted you directly? Did they send it Certified? Did they note when it arrived certified?

    Sure, things are assumed to have been delivered 3 days after mailing. BUT, we all know the post office screws up. I had them returning items that I should have gotten until I had a little talk with the local postmaster.

    Using my situation as an example. If CA1 said that they sent me several letters and I said they didn't, they would respond (if they had half a clue) with "But it is assumed deliverd 3 days after we mailed it." To which I would respond "You say you mailed it, show me some proof that it was mailed. Do you have a receipt from the Post Office for the stamp? Do you use a postage meter that scans the item and attaches some sort of address to the postage on your account, or does it just weigh the letter and apply the correct postage?" And besides if I am maintaining that this debt is not valid because it was paid, why would I wait for a year/ 2 years/ 3years before I said it wasn't valid due to payment in full. I have suffered because of this on my CR."

    In other words, since you are already sueing them for violations, it is REASONABLE to assume that without proof that the item(s) was(were) not ever mailed and it is no more than an excuse to try to destroy your arguement.

    And I don't think that a CA could make a report to the CRAs count as "notice". They never sent you anything in writing, and writing is what counts. You are not required at any time to look at your credit report. For most people the only time they look at their credit report is when they get denied for something "big".

    I don't know if this makes an ounce of sense, but it's the best I can do right now.
  14. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Umm, still confused.

    I sometime in the past year or two, have made payments on some of the debts this CA holds.

    Where one debt was originally $460 now it is $270.

    I know you all are trying to help me but I still can't help but think you are missing my point.

    I sent a validation letter to this CA a couple weeks ago. They didn't respond directly to the validate letter. Instead, they mailed the letter I posted at the top of this thread. It was an attempt to collect on a debt.

    I think this is continud collection after validation.

    They think I had my opportunity to validate when the FDCPA section 809b stated I should do so within that FIRST 30 DAYS.

    Therefore they think they have not violated any law.

    With their way of thinking...on top of payments that were made...shows that I acknowledged those debts.

    And of course, if I acknowledged those debts, then a validation letter is pointless and holds no water.

    AM I RIGHT???

  15. keepmine

    keepmine Well-Known Member


    This is from the FDCPA 809 {c}

    (c) The failure of a consumer to dispute the validity of a debt under this section may not be construed by any court as an admission of liability by the consumer.
    You never lose the right to validate.

    Now then, let me point out a flaw in Conner's argument. The ca never has to prove that you ever received anything. All they need do is convince a judge that it is more likely than not that they did mail the item. With all of these computerized and automated mailing systems available to business's today, the argument I never got itand they can't prove they mailed it just will not carry the day.
    There was a court case where this was mentioned. I think it may have been Mahon vs Credit Bureau of Placer County where this argument was mentioned.
    You never lose the right to validate. Just continue to demand validation and not get into the issue of the mail.
  16. jlynn

    jlynn Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Letter from CA, after val letter...

    Am I going to have to disconnect your phone line?
    Rule #1 - and I told you this before - he who negotiates first loses. Don't jump on one violation. Another rule of thumb - if they violate once, they generally violate again. Build a case.

    Did you ask her where she got her law degree?

    Snake, I sent you a bill today for $200, you absent mindedly paid me $10. So you now therefore owe me $190 and I don't have to prove it :)

    No, no, no. Wrong mindset. They are dumb because they think they can bluff a Cneter.

    jlynn is now working because DH's boss, who owes us 3 months pay and was supposed to send it Monday left the country until the 14th. Ford is going 30+ and there is not a darn thing I can do about it. I'm depressed. Worse than that, DH was supposed to tape Part 2 of West Wing last night, and the VCR messed up - Is Zoe dead or alive?

    BTW - they didn't know you applied for credit. You disputed with the CRA's and the CRA notified them. Wow a CRA that is actually doing their job. Novel thought.
  17. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Letter from CA, after val letter...


    The CRA notified them? It should be interesting to know that seeings how I disputed the debt to the CA, weather the CA verified or not.

    Jlynn, now that you know my situation, what should I do next?

    Send Estoppel? ITS because of the collection letter after the validate was sent? Or wait til I find out if they validated with the CRA's?

  18. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Letter from CA, after val letter...


    Norfolk and Waypal!

    LOL, I see your point now! OMG...I feel violated!

    Thanks for your paitience while I was being consumed by self doubt.

    You guys ROCK!

  19. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Letter from CA, after val letter...

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, here's my question one more time, with feeling, have you studied "--> What Is Validation!"?

    Answers most questions you are asking.

    Mahon doesn't "mention" proof of mail it maticulously covers the issue.

    Still waiting for Snake's answer.

  20. snakeman

    snakeman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Letter from CA, after val letter...

    Yeah I read the post. I am confused as to how it relates to me though. Would you be so kind as to explain your thoughts?

    If I sent out a validation letter 2 years after the debt hit my credit report....according to what people here are saying, I still retain the rights afforded me by section 809b which states that they must cease all collection activity.

    I will assume that the above is correct.

    Now, I just wanted to know how to proceed. If I am missing something please tell me ASAP.

    Thank you for your paitience,


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