LisaMc -- Did you file?

I think I screwed up the "reply with quote". My answers to your questions are started with a double **. Sorry!

 

The reason I referred to the "relief of stay" motion as boilerplate was because there are standard reasons why a mortgagee asks the bk court to lift the stay...and lisa's papers reflect that.

Because you are still under the bk court...it is the only court that will have standing on this issue. An automatic stay is what bk is all about...it basically means that while you're in bk your crditors can't come after you...so you definitely do NOT want the bk court to lift that stay until you get Chase/Movant unscrewed.

Your trustee can be helpful in this matter...now the trustee is not supposed to be on one side or the other...his job is to protect the bk estate...which is composed of all the things on the schedules you filed. But if you have right on your side and the trustee agrees then the bk judge will probably find in your favor.

Another reason I said it was boilerplate (besides the fact that on its face it sounded so) is that all mortgagees want relief from the automatic stay...especially from chapter 13 bks...'cause 13s can turn into 7s.

So as I said earlier in this thread...if you are well documented don't worry...the burden of proof is going to be their burden not yours.

Hope this helps.

clc

 

sassy-
I understand your point...but the only place lisa can get relief right now is in the bankruptcy court. The bk court has standing...and the house is part of the bk estate...which means the trustee is the chief. In other words, lisa can not go to any other court to get relief right now except the bk court.

Now this is a good thing as the automatic stay is a powerful protection. Another thing is when a mortgagee is successful in getting a relief of stay it doesn't mean they can foreclose the next day. All the relief does is let them pursue due process through the civil court.

So my advice for Lisa is to concentrate on presenting her documentation and case to the trustee via her atty as this is the only legal venue she can pursue. The only legal recourse she can get against chase right now is violations of the automatic stay. That is why her monies are sent to a special bk dept.

Given what Lisa has posted it sounds to me like she has a very solid documented case...Chase is definitely screwed up but if they foreclosed in violation of the automatic stay they would be in deep sh*t.

It seems to me that her atty should be able to get this settled via the trustee but every district has their different local rules. The one common thread is the bk judges are all very sensitive re:the automatic stay...it is the base of all their judicial power and they don't let creditors walk over them on this.

hope this helps.

clc

 

BTW,

Filing a BK and taking advanatge of the stay, and then dropping your own bk case after it's straightened out may be an option.

I don't think that shows up on your CR when you dismiss your own bk.

In the meantime she can enlist the help of the federal judiciary to help her clean this mess up.

 

CLC/Sassy, This is one point I don't understand in regards to this mess...

When I received the motion to life the stay, I IMMEDIATELY called the CH 13 Trustee's office. I asked to speak with the Trustee personally and stated it was "extremely urgent." His assistant asked for my case number, etc. She pulls up her records and says "Oh yes, I see here that you are being foreclosed on. Are you not making your payments to the other creditors?" I said "Of course I am making the payments to the secured creditors. This is all a huge mistake! I have 3 years of documents to prove that I have made these payments as required." I said that I wanted to send a packet of documentation to the Trustee as well as my attorney. She said "no need. We will have no input at all at this point, none whatsoever. Your attorney will handle everything & let us know what happened."

Does this make sense to anyone? If my Trustee has all of this power/influence with the court, why would he not even care to know the facts? I do not have the feeling that he is going to champion this cause at all.

CLC, I don't understand the need for the Special BK Division. A mortgage is secured property. If I dont make my payments, they foreclose. The same is true if I own a car or a boat. It is also the same if I am not in a CH13, if I don't make the payments, I am out. So why the need for segregration and a different standard of service? It makes no sense to me. Also, if I filed a CH 7 right now, the house would still not be affected--if I continued to pay I keep it, if not Im out. Can you clarify?

Thanks everyone for your input. Sassy, I hestitate going to the www.chasesucks.com site. I am probably better off now knowing the horror stories of people out on the street!

 

Ch13 Trustees are the most notoreously lazy people there are. Follow up with certified mail documenting that conversation.

 

Lisa,
The trustee's action is very understandable to me...the trustee doesn't usually take sides...he is there to protect the bankrupt estate not to represent either you or the creditor. If the trustee knows you are represented by an atty (he/she probably even knows your atty) then it is likely he/she will only communicate re:motions with your atty. The trustee will weigh in on the side that is right though...and he will have his say in the proceeding.

The reason that the mortgagor has a special bk department isn't to protect you...it is to protect themselves from violations of the automatic stay. The banks/mortgagees put the accounts separately because they cannot start any civil procedures to foreclose when a mortgagor is in bk. This means they have to have a whole set of different actions going on...so therefore they segregate these mortgages in a separate computer file to be handled differently. If you were in the mainstream and they thought you were delinquent in your mortgage it would generate or "tickle" different actions via a civil procedure and not a bk procedure.So to make a long explanation shorter: your mortgage right now is different because it is under the protection of the automatic stay.

Right now your concentration should be with your atty...hopefully you have some confidence in him. With all your documentation I would be surprised if you would lose. What should happen here is that you should via the bk procedure get this account with Chase straightened out. Once it is straightened out and back on track then the relief from a stay would be no big deal as you are making your pmts...the relief from stay doesn't mean they foreclose the next day it just means that your mortgage is put back into the mainstream and if you default the mortgagee can then pursue you civilly.

The main concern from the mortgagee's standpoint (and sometimes you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand the whys) is that chap 13s can convert to 7s...and if the equity in your house is exempted then they can lose big time...so it behooves them to file a motion for a relief of stay against any mortgagor that is in bk 13. That is why I thought the motion was somewhat boilerplate...they have nothing to lose by filing the motion and everything to gain if the motion is successful. So don't let this intimidate you...have your documentation well organized and go from there. As Sergeant Friday used to say(Dragnet...old tv show...you're probably too young to remember ;=}) "just the facts, maam"...and that is exactly what the bk judge will be looking for.

Hope this long winded explanation helps.

clc

 

CLC, your insider knowledge has given me tremendous insight into this whole process. Thank you so much for your time and attention to explaining the intricacies of this situation. I am most appreciative.

My question of the BK was answered. I didn't realize how a mortgage would be handled in a Ch 7 if there was signficant equity. That makes sense why they would want to guard against that.

There is a doubt in my mind on this whole thing. I have made my payments--this is an indisputable fact. I have made them on time--another indisputable fact. I have made them for the full amount--not quite so clear cut. If Chase wants to say that the escrow has been underfunded all year, it probably has been by about $900 (according to my calculations). Did I try to get them to give me an amount to pay? Yes. Did they ever send me a statement or a bill for this amount? No. They did send me one escrow analysis about 4 months ago. I couldn't make heads or tails out of it and I disputed every point on it because it was wrong. I imagine that is the way they will come at this--I would if I were them.

On the other hand, I may be reading way too much into this. This probably is not all that deep or devious. It is probably exactly what you said with all the mergers/acquisitions it is no wonder that they have administration issues on a loan that they bought halfway through a CH 13. That probably shouldn't surprise me. I got a letter from them the day after the motion came, it said "your June payment went to the wrong payment address, please send it to blah blah blah." They acknowledge that they had it in the letter and then deny they do in the motion.

The whole thing is just concerning. I hate dealing with them.

One last question, and I will leave you alone. I promise! Did you mean that you think there is a chance that this loan could be moved out from under the BK department after it is straightened out? The Ch 13 will not be final for another year. Is there a chance that Chase will remove that status after the dust settles and free me from this hell?

 

Lisa,
Your welcome...no problem...as a newbie I try and contribute where I can which is the true spirit of this forum.

First let me address your escrow question...I am assuming you mean your tax escrow fund. There really isn't any civil law that says you MUST escrow your taxes with a mortgagee. Most mortgagees put into the contract for their own protection...but I have never heard of anyone getting foreclosed on because their escrow fund was underfunded...basically if the taxes are paid in full every year the mortgagee should have no complaint. So if you are "under" funded all it means is that you might be $900 short on your tax fund...which you would voluntarily make up anyway as you don't want your home sold at a sheriff's sale. So it is in your best interest to see that the tax escrow fund is funded so the taxes are paid. One document you should have is your property tax bill...that way when you get your date in court you can reconcile your tax bill with the escrow fund to make sure that the mortgagor isn't "over" funding you.

Now to you ?? re:being back in the mainstream. My opinion on this is while you are in bk don't give up the automatic stay so easily. Keep in mind that if it wasn't for the automatic stay you would have a bigger hassle right now. Chase would have sued you civilly...you would have had to get another atty to defend you...etc.. Neither Chap 7 or Chap 13 protects you from debts acquired after your petition date...but in your plan you probably agreed to pay your mortgage outside the scope of the plan which you have been doing. So until you get this whole mess straightened out and your pmts are being recorded correctly I wouldn't be in any hurry to lift that automatic stay. Just my opinion of course...but an opinion acquired from being on the other side for 14 years...mortgagees hate the automatic stay because it puts them on the burden of proof side...but a civil case puts the mortgagor on that side...much easier case for the mortgagee.

Hope this helps.

clc

PS I have a couple of questions for you and sassyinaz...if you're both in Chap 13 now why all the credit repair efforts? Have either of you applied for credit cards during the chap 13 payment period? I just started my 13 mostly because of the irs not creditors...but I would like my credit report to be clean when I'm through with my chap 13 payments...other than the bk notation which I understand will be there for 7 years.

 

sassy & lisa,
what you say, sassy, is all true...but the reality is what it is...putting fear into the heart of debtors is an age old trick and because it works it has become a time worn tradition...it is forums like this one that will end the "rule of intimidation".

unfortunately lisa has no recourse for "pain & suffering" in the bk court...but she does have the automatic stay...and it works...the bank will not be able to come after her right now for anything. it is a hassle to have to defend against a "relief of stay" motion but it is done every day...it is much cheaper and less hassle than it is to defend against foreclosure in the civil courts, though.

I cannot guarantee anything on this case except that my "gut" feelings and experience say that this will all get straightened out in the bk court. What the bk judge loooks to is "good faith"...and it seems like lisa and her husband are making all the good faith moves any judge could ask for...they are sending a check every month...they are communicating with the mortgagee...so it seems to me that the judge will see it as I do as a "failure to communicate" on the part of Chase.

OT...on my bk...I have lived without credit cards for over 6 years....the only reason I would apply now is to put some positive tradelines on my credit report. I received some money as a gift from my family after the bk petition...so I thought I would use some of it to fund a couple of secured cards...my credit report had some neg tradelines...specifically a judgement from '98 that was filed by a collection agency on a Mobil card that was stolen...I don't remember getting served and could have probably had it vacated...by why bother when it is going to get discharged in bk. Two negs from a providian and cap 1 credit card...both closed in mid '96...totalling about 2K...they would both drop off anyway next year. One collection account from a utility bill for $600 from '96...which was caused by the utility company not disconnecting my service when I moved from an old apt....my biggest negative is the irs for $98K...that is the reason why I never even bothered to worry about credit repair...but the irs will get discharged in my bk...and because of their huge standing...what little money I pay in my chap 13 plan will all go to them. The reason I'm here is that I would like to work on my credit report so that by 2005 I will be able to join the credit giving world again. Mostly to be able to buy a home instead of being a renter. I have applied for a couple of secured cards this week...will send in my apps with the money monday...maybe they will and maybe they won't but I won't know unless I apply and try.

I have read both lisa and sassy's threads...so I know where to look for help in getting my report cleaned up...if that's ok with you two.

thanks for being there...and hope my little bit of info helps.

clc

 

CLC, thanks again for your post! I have learned so much from this thread. Thanks to you and everyone else here. I am much better informed!

Regarding your question of the CH13 and clean up efforts--When my husband and I filed almost 2 years ago, it was all unsecured, cc debt (no judgements/tax issues/irs issues thank God!). We knew, up front, that the public record of bk alone was enough to keep us from getting ANY loan of ANY kind for at least 5 years. We were prepared to live, completely on a cash basis, for that long. We were happy in our house & neighborhood, we had 2 new vehicles, our income was very stable, we should be fine until our credit "cleaned up" naturally over time. Well, having said all of that, less than a year after the filing, Sept 11th occurred. My husband works for a commercial airline. The airline was struggling terribly, laying off people everywhere, and my husband's career went from a stellar outlook to bleak literally overnight. He didn't get laid off, rather he was offered a promotion to another city. the actual move would happen several months later. Now we needed to be in a position to sell our home and buy another one. I got on the internet and searched under "bad credit mortgages." I found a company that dealt in this, called them, and explained the situation. The loan officer said he would pull a credit report on us both, while I was on the phone, and let me know what to expect mortgage wise. WIthin two minutes he was finished. He said "Your credit scores are terrible. We can't finance you with anyone, not even sub prime. There is not a mortgage company in the US that I know of that would take a mortgage with these scores, period." Our scores at this time were all under 420 and TU had us both in the high 300's. This man really helped me. He said as he reviewed our reports that he saw things that he figured were wrong and that it would be worth my while to do a few disputes, try to get the big problems fixed, and call him back when our scores were over 520. I pulled our reports, was shocked at the errors. We both had the bk reporting. Every single account included in the bk was "charged off", reporting once, twice, or three times with varying account numbers. We had accounts that had been sold multiple times not reporting as "sold/transferred" so it looked like quadruple the debt. There were probably 50 inquiries on each of our reports for collections. Then there was the whole issue of the collection agencies. They all reported in error. None of the accounts were shown as "in bk" when they all were. So, we had the double whammy of the bk combined with someone who had, on paper, walked on all of these debts. I started the process of cleaning it up. I was amazed at the results. Less than a year later, both of us had scores in the mid 600's. My husbands scores were getting very close to 700. By the time we were ready to apply for a new mortgage, FHA would take us at 6.5%, minimum down. That was the reason I started all of this. After all of the effort, we found out that we weren't moving after all! Oh well, it needed to be done. It wasn't going to get any better until I intervened. Now, other than the issues like Chase, I just try to help anyone else if I can. It is has sort of develped into an interest. I have helped several friends deal with problems they have had. If I had known then what I know now, I would have never stood for the abuse I took with creditors pre-bk. I was just ignorant and ashamed and took it from them. No more!

Good luck to you CLC. I hope you can get enough info here to help you in your journey. There are so many good people to help you in this forum. Lots of expertise in varied areas. So just ask!