Hey all, I'm on the crusade to get my credit fixed, along with my wife's. One of the hurdles that I have to overcome is a scam that my wife fell prey to in July 2003. Long and the short of it. She took a telemarketers' call, and verbally agreed to get a couple of magazine subscriptions from a company called Magazine Solutions, based out of PA. Along with the subscriptions, they were supposed to send some sort of "free" gifts to her mother, and some other junk... all for the low low price of $27 a month for 36 months. That's over $700 for magazines! What a ripoff. Supposedly, they sent a confirmation of her selections to our home, and the same to her mother. I don't recall ever seeing any of the magazines arrive here. The only magazines we get are ones that I have paid for, and I think I paid $40 for a 5 year subscription to a car mag. Apparently, my wife had received a couple of calls from their CA (B.C. Services) seeking payment for their "services"(if you call it that), but she never sent a dime. In May 2004, I got involved, because I had no clue as to what had been going on. It started with a phone message from a collection company called B.C. Services, and the guy said that this was "concerning a pending legal matter" and in "reference to the letter that was sent previously this week". I asked my wife what this was about, and she handed me a letter, with no disclosure, and no "mini-miranda". It looked like the ink was still wet on the paper when the jerk folded it, and sent it off. I read the letter, and listened to the message again; I could tell by the tone in the guys voice that I was dealing with a CA who liked to threaten and intimidate. Just the kind of people I like to talk to when I've had a crappy day... I called the number, and waited for a few minutes on hold; while on hold, I figured I might want to record the conversation. I got connected to him, and asked him if I could, and of course he refused. I first asked him what this was about, and why they were threatening to sue for over $1,400. He explained it very condescendingly, and that started to bother me. A personal comment later about me, and I began to record the conversation. My phone emits a beep that is audible to both parties when it records, so at this time, I'm certain that if the jerk wants to end the conversation, he can hang up. But he didn't. I pressed him to send validation of the debt. He proceeded to threaten legal action, stating that they had already sent validation of the debt, numerous times, had recorded phone conversations with my wife of payment arrangements, yadda yadda. "She's already gotten the papers! If she threw them away, that's not my fault!" he said. He kept on making comments like, "What are you, some government official?" I said, "No, I'm an educated consumer, and I know my rights under the FDCPA." His reply,"Oh, if you are studying law, you need to find another profession." :O I couldn't believe the audacity of this clown. At this point, I decided to have some fun... He said, for what seemed like the 4th time, that he was going to "garnish her wages". I replied, "What wages are you going to garnish, smartass?" He said, "OOO OO! Good! You just cursed over the airwaves. I think I'll have your phone cut off. Apparently you don't know your rights under the FDCPA. I'll see to that" I scoffed, "Yeah, whatever." He proceeded to make more comments about us "not being in the Stone Age" and how many hearings that he's been to. I said, "Well, it's ovbious that I'm dealing with a moron in a cubicle..." and he cut me off in mid sentance after the word "moron". He then challenged me to see if I'd say that to his face in court and that we would settle it outside the courtroom. SHAZAAM! The conversation ended with him saying that he was going to send the "validation" and call me back in a week; that was all I wanted in the first place. I decided to wait it out, and see what kind of junk this two-bit chump was going to send. I decided that I needed to start the paper trail. Thus far, I have sent 3 letters, to which they have not made a single reply. The same guy, however, did try to speak with my mother-in-law by leaving a message on her answering machine. Isn't this a violation as well, since our current contact information was on top of all 3 letters? My wife's CBR shows that they reported the debt 90 days past due, but that was back in February. They have not updated it since then. I am prepared to file suit against this company for the harassment that they have seen fit to throw our way. Any guidance or requests to fill in the blanks is/are welcome. I WANNA GET RID OF THEM, AND GET PAID! I also found this link... apparently they have had this trouble before http://www.pittsburgh.bbb.org/nis/newsearch2.asp?ID=1&ComID=0141000000001802
I WANNA GET RID OF THEM, AND GET PAID! Col. K0rn ===================== Read my links Brush up on the basics ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it.
If this is a scam, treat it as a scam and not a business dispute. It is important to call things by their right name, and politeness should not stand in your way. $700 of magazines is absurd on its face for a consumer order. Did the telemarketer say your wife was buying $700 of magazines? If you received NO magazines, or not what was promised, then regardless of what your wife agreed to, they have breached that agreement. If you know the names of several of the magazines ordered, contact the magazines directly to verify that no order was even placed to send magazines to either your wife or relative. That is sufficient to show the whole transaction is a scam. File a complaint with your local DA, or perhaps with your state AG, if this outfit is out of state, also send a complaint to the magazines they claimed they placed orders for, requesting information on whether any orders were placed in your name, whether they do business with this outfit, and canceling any existing subscriptions or any that might be entered in your name by this outfit in the future due to failure to deliver. Also check for similar complaints against the subscription firm with BBB, or ripoffreport.com, etc. to see if this is their pattern of business. Build a case that this company has not delivered, therefore nothing is due, and that fraud is their business model. If this, or another CA continues collection activity, file complaints connecting them with the original scam outfit. This sort of company cannot operate without CAs willing to collect for them.
From the BBB report: "Government Actions In January 2000, United Publishers Service settled a May 1997 Consent Petition with the Pennsylvania Attorney General. Without admitting to any wrongdoing, the company agreed to comply with State & Federal Laws including the FTC Telemarketing Sales Rule, Pennsylvania Telemarketer Registration Act, Federal Fair Debt Collection Practices. According to terms of the settlement, United Publishers Service agrees to inform customers in writing of their right to cancel, honor cancellation requests, make certain disclosures when telemarketing consumers and using taped verifications, refrain from making false or misleading statements in reference to cost of the magazines, and from submitting to any Credit Bureau or credit reporting agency a consumer?s ability to pay when they have exercised their right to cancel under applicable Federal or State law. " Did they ever send anything in writing informing of the right to cancel? Did they make false or misleading statements about the cost?
Is the collection agency located in CO? If so their records with the BBB is spotless so far, but I would still document the phone call (transcribe from the tape, but don't mention the tape), and file a complaint with their BBB, and their state AG's office, make sure you mention that their client settled with the PA state AG's office for failing to provide their serices, and they did not provide you, or anyone else their services in your case.
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Thanks for the help ontrack and jam237. I'll keep you guys posted on the developments. I'll apologize in advance for the lengthy post, but man, it's chock full of good information. I don't post "crap". All my thoughts are golden. As far as contacting the magazine companies directly, I don't need to. We haven't gotten any. I can give you the rundown on what I found out last night, and todays developments. While doing some late night reading on the company, and their track history with the law, I found that the PA AG's office filed suit against them on May 13, 1996. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/05/magstate.htm I got a subscription to PACER, and found that the case was pretty hefty against them. I read the docket, and as it turns out in January of 2000, they signed a consent agreement with the AG's office. I also searched the AG's office in PA, where the companies are located, and came across this http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press/release.cfm?p=99731398-DD71-11D3-8DE90060972D2515 I wound up scouring the AG's website and came across two items that really got me psyched up! One of them was the Pennsylvania Telemarketer Registration Act. The other was the Pennsylvania Unfair Trade Practices and Consumer Protection Law. Within these two annals of information, I found two gems. Allow me to quote them, and pose some questions. First, from the PUTPCPL (Allow me to paraphrase) 9201-7. Contracts: effect of rescission (a) Where goods ...are sold or contracted to be sold to a buyer, as a result of ... a ...call on the buyer or resident at his residence ...by telephone, that consumer may avoid the contract ...by notifying, in writing, the seller within three full business days following the day on which the contract ...was made ... (b) At the time of the sale or contract the buyer shall be provided with: (1) A fully completed receipt or copy of any contract pertaining to such sale, ...which shows the date of the transaction and contains the name and address of the seller, and in immediate proximity to the space reserved in the contract for the signature of the buyer or on the front page of the receipt if a contract is not used and in bold face type of a minimum size of ten points, a statement in substantially the following form: "You, the buyer, may cancel this transaction at any time prior to midnight of the third business day after the date of this transaction. See the attached notice of cancellation form for an explanation of this right." (2) A completed form in duplicate, captioned "Notice of Cancellation," which shall be attached to the contract or receipt and easily detachable, and which shall contain in ten-point bold face type the following information and statements in the same language (Spanish, English, etc.) as that used in the contract: YADDA YADDA YADDA. My first point in this is the part I highlighted above. If they made contact via phone, they are supposed to send a receipt or contract with a space for my wife's signature. Let me see if they can produce a signature for my wife agreeing to purchase $777 worth of magazines. THEY FREAKING CAN'T! You know how I know? The jerk that I spoke with sent me copies of what the supposedly sent the first time. It doesn't even come close to complying with the laws that state how the "receipt or contract" are supposed to follow. There isn't even a place for a signature! Their idea of a notice of cancellation is on the reverse of the first page, which is not "easily detachable", in small print, which states "CANCELLATION POLICY You may cancel your subscription order without obligation, within three (3)* business days after receiving this agreement by signing and dating the certification below. Any payments already made by you will be returned withing 30 days. This form or any other written notice should be mailed or delivered to MagazineSOLUTIONS at the address on the reverse side of this form... {you are supposed to fill in your name and address here} *Residents of FL, KS and MD have seven days. For your protection, we recommend you return this notice by certified mail." My second point: They are supposed to provide a duplicate NOTICE OF CANCELLATION form. They did not. Armed with this information, I decided to find someone who had dealt with this company up close and personal; who better than the Deputy AG who handled the case? I spoke with her briefly about the situation. I told her that I had not filed a complaint with them, or my state AG's office, but that they had 5 more days before I did. She offered to send me a copy of the lawsuit, and other pertinent information. I about fell out of my seat. I was thinking, "This is AWESOME!" Here's the really good stuff. So, with this information rolling around in my mind, I started piecing some of the strategy together. Without my wife's signature, there is no contractual obligation. With no contract, there is no debt. All collection activity can be construed as harassment. Therefore, I'm in a bit of a quandary. Do I sue United Publishers and B.C. Services(the collection agency) together, or separately? Decisions, decisions... Ideas? Suggestions?
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help You are trying to build the case that there is no contract, it is invalid, or they breached it. If you made no payment, that would support your position that you did not order, or you intended to cancel, but with no documentation of the order, what its terms were, or even the cancelation policy, as required by law, they illegally denied you your right to cancel. Your position is that your right to cancel therefore must be extended to whenever they finally comply with the law. If no order was ever even placed with any magazines, then why are they due anything, let alone $770? If you made a payment, that would be evidence that there was a contract, however, if after this payment, they did not actually place orders, that would support your position that this was a scam. They are trying to collect on a "debt" from a contract they themselves have breached at the start. If any orders were place, were they even for the number of years they claim? You might also be able to find out if the magazines had other complaints against these companies. This is a step beyond just "I never received anything.". Since the claimed amount of the transaction is so large, there may also be requirements in either state consumer law, or possible the UCC, that the "contract" be in writing, and signed.
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help 1) They did NOT, in fact, send you any contract with notice of cancellation policy, regardless of what they claimed later. 2) Would you, as a legitimate business engaged in continuing and repeated business with consumers, sell and ship $770 worth of actual merchandise to customers that you cold-called, without first receiving full payment, or at least a signed contract? I don't think so!
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Did they, in their original sales pitch, make any deceptive, or exagerated claims, such as, "our prices are lower than you can get anywhere else"? Did they disclose the full contract price?
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Sorry to be so long in replying to your post. There are two separate issues in this complicated mess. ISSUE ONE The case I'm trying to build against the OC is that there was no signed contract. Under the state law of PA regulating telemarketers, if the contract is oral, it has to be reduced to a contract, with a space for the buyer to sign the contract. According to my wife, she does not recall signing a contract. Therefore, there is no validity to their claim of her indebtedness to them. They in turn sent the claimed debt to a CA, who is the second issue. Today I got a copy of the lawsuit filed against the OC. Boy oh boy, they got their butt handed to them. Over $27K in civil penalties, on 15 violations of Telemarketing law. The statuatory penalty per violation is $1,000. In our situation, we have about 8 that we can prove. We are searching for more. The cool thing about the agreement between the OC and the AG's office is that the OC agreed to maintain any information regarding any contract with any consumer has to be retained for 24 months. With a 3 day written notice, the AG's office can investigate compliance with this agreement. I'm confident that when the AG's office gets the complaint, they will re-open the case, and check compliance. The consent agreement also specifically states that compliance does not waive a consumer's right to action. Therefore, I still have the right to seek private prosecution for harassment from issue two, the CA. ISSUE TWO The stupid CA called the day before yesterday, trying to settle for half of what they claim is owed. He said he wanted $334. My wife laughed, and told him he was crazy. He said that he consulted with "their attorney", and that my letters were stall tactics, and I had baseless claims. Whatever... I think he needs to hire another attorney, because they still are reporting the debt on the CBR, and it's not coded as "disputed". He sure hasn't sent validation, and is still attempting to collect. We wound up hanging up on him because he was being verbally abusive. I was glad that he called, because its' yet more violations. I think their total now stands at 17. We're gonna get paid...
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help 1* I was dealing with a CA who liked to threaten and intimidate. 2*I figured I might want to record the conversation. I got connected to him, and asked him if I could, and of course he refused. 3*I said, "No, I'm an educated consumer, and I know my rights under the FDCPA." 4*Thus far, I have sent 3 letters, to which they have not made a single reply. 5*Isn't this a violation as well, since our current contact information was on top of all 3 letters? Col. K0rn ************************************************ 1*With 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 % of them like that he wasn't hard to find was he????? 2* You don't ask if you can you tell them you are going to. 3* Never let a CA know how smart you are. It blows your cover! 4*Why so many? You must be sending them the wrong letter or saying the wrong thing. 5*Can you prove you sent them? Did you send them CRRR? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it. NEW MEMBERS READ THIS. http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=410243#post410243 ************************************************************
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Under PA law, the telemarketer was required to send a copy of the agreement in writing, allowing the consumer to cancel. They can be assumed to be aware of this requirement, because of the settlement terms with the PA AG. Under UCC, contracts for sale of goods for over $500 must be in writing. Under UCC, contracts where performance will take more than 1 year must be in writing. Were any payments made? Were any magazine subscriptions actually made? If not, then both parties have acted as if there is no contract, other than the telemarketer's attempt to collect the "debt". If the debt is assigned to the CA, treat the CAs actions as additional actions of the telemarketer OC. (I am not an a attorney.)
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help You could even say the telemarketer chose not to enter into a contract with you. If you wanted to enforce the "contract" you thought you had, they could have said there was none, or that you had rejected their "offer" by not replying.
Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Whether the telemarketer entered into a contract or not is not realkly germane since the products "purchased" were never recieved. That voids any contract that may have existed. I would be telling this CA that the OC broke the contract by not delivering the goods and they had better get the TL off my credit report pronto or I sue. If they want to sue I will be glad to accept service of the summons. Poster, don't be defensive on this - you have the strongest legal standing - they are trying to get you to pay for something taht was never delivered. No court will permit that, but YOU have to raise it, now.
Re: Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help Thanks for all the help. I have sufficient evidence to litigate, and have retained an attorney to do just that. I will update y'all as soon as this thing washes out.
Re: Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need help I hope you get 'em good! Years ago I got suckered into a magazine scam. I think I paid all the payments, but it was like 10 times what it should cost--probably more than the cover price!
Re: Re: MagazineSolution scam.Need Ok, this is a bump because of some recent developments. I did retain an attorney who was doing the work pro-bono, but he hasn't done shit toward helping me. He won't return my calls, and I haven't heard from him since I made the 3 hour drive to his office to review the case and sign some paperwork with him. I had all the CMRRR letters returned to me today that I had sent to this CA since the inception of my fiasco. Hmmm.... do they exist any more? Apparently not, since the CA's address was at a Mail Boxes Etc. location a few blocks away from the physical location of the OC. Seems as though the OC has a collections department, and when I started taking the CA to task, they turned tail. Unfortunate for them, because I now have evidence that I sent them the letters, and they refused to cooperate any and all of my requests. <chinaman voice> verrrrryyy interesting </chinaman voice> Now, my question is this...do I take them to Federal Court, or handle it on a local level? Do I go after the OC, or the CA? Now that I have the letters that I sent to the CA that are UNOPENED, and addressed correctly, can I force the hand of the CB to remove the item from my wife's CR's?
