you could be right... ;( I actually didn't bother reading that part b/c of the studying I'm doing... my eyes actually hurt... so I'm posting for relaxation and reading the FTC isn't relaxing of course... if the 3 days don't apply to her.. then why do they have "I (we) have read this purchase agreement and hereby acknowledge receipt of a fully completed copy and notices of cancellation." Also on the contract, there is a place for them to fill in "THIRD BUSINESS DAY FOLLOWING DATE OF ORDER". Which of course they didn't. in their contract??? also... I am wondering... if they said "all sales final" after she signed... as she signed... before she signed... did she sign... then they said... oh by the way.. all sales are final... Legally she may be stuck with this... I guess my gut just says something's fishy here and so I want to find a way to help her fight this... and her state may have applicable laws that give her a 3 day right of cancellation... or other "unconscienable practices" laws... I'm just thinking out loud. Normally when the board bounces ideas around eventually we come up with pretty good suggestions (but it sometimes takes 20 of us)...
LOL Marie, My eyes hurt too, I'm going to go recharge them. I hope she'll clarify. It would be great, really great, to find a way around this for the poster and everyone else buying something on a retail contract. It reminds me of car dealer's contracts and they are just slimey -- no remorse provisions for those either! The difference seems to me to be that you are actually or usually taking the merchandise (car) when you leave. There's a reason they do that while we are inhaling the smell of newness. She didn't take anything with her. I'm wondering too, with the dollar amount, if they aren't subject to the TIL disclosures and it doesn't count to call something a layaway. Is there finance charges would be the question. Or Transamerica, calling mortgage loans, revolving to get around the tila. That didn't fly for very long either. There have been some cases won on the tila provisions requiring that consumers be given (before signing) a copy of the completed contract, sometimes it's only minutes. It's a technicality thing, which factors into your question of when did they say all sales are final, as they were signing, after, before. Though there's a contract, even if they have all the loopholes closed, she still hasn't received anything, isn't that part of making a contract? It seems to me they would need a court action to be able to pursue collection, for breach of contract or something similar. I'll check some more tomorrow too. Rest your eyelids, thank you for your posts, they are always so informative. Sassy
If I understand the basic contract law definitions... even if the contract is valid but a judge or jury thinks putting "all sales final" on one copy but not the other copy of the contract is fraudulent in nature... then even a valid contract can be voidable. after all... I think most of us would expect both copies of the contract to be exactly the same... the one they have and the one they gave the consumer...if they're different.. then she might have a good case for fraudulent intentions... and even if there had been a 3 day window that was missed... she might be able to get out of the contract this way... also.. with undue influence.. well... common sense tells us that those high pressure sales events can be exactly that... and if it got to a jury and not a judge... I'd think she would have a good chance of them telling the company to forget it... a judge might be less understanding... but I would think a judge would also be irritated if 2 copies of contracts have different things on it... or if they added something after she signed the contract... but again.. how many people will fight an issue like this to that degree? she may rather just suck it up and pay... vs fight them... hey... good point... "in consideration for"... what's she getting other than a headache????? maybe that's another issue. ahhh.. the shotgun approach Oh... and let's remember the business case approach. You sqeeze me and get your money from me out of your hard core collection attempts... but I get you on Eyewitness news and you lose 200 suckers you would have gotten without my big mouth explaining your hard core slime closing tactics...over the nightly local news... sometimes the business case approach is the strongest The saddest part is that these companies live and breathe on our ignorance and apathy. Ignorance when we sign... apathy when we complain a bit but don't really follow through and file complaints ... and sue...although on this one... I think I'd consult an atty b/f suing too much grey area for my little understanding of the law...
Oh, you guys are just wonderful! Last night, after reading the posts, I was definitely despondent, but now I have a little more hope. To clarify. I did not sign the contract at their place of business. It was at a hotel in my area. The Cooling Off Rule was created for situations exactly like mine. Also, we were told "All Sales Final" after we signed, we were actually ready to leave when she had us initial. I can't remember is she had tore off our copies or not before we initialed. No one else was there. No one else got suckered and wanted to buy anything, they just got their travel certificate and left. It was just myself, my fiance, the sales rep, and his assistant. His assistant is the one who handled ALL of the paperwork, and she kept apologizing because she was new. She is the only one who signed anything, too. Not the sales rep. HMMMMMM....I wonder if she still works for them? Just did a search for her on whitepages.com. No luck. She was pretty young (early 20s) and seemed a little oblivious (air headed), just thinking she might work for a defense. Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and encouragement!
If I were a juror and heard this.. I'd vote in favor of you. I wouldn't consider changing a contract after signing it just an error.. I'd consider it a deliberate attempt at getting you to think you didn't have 3 days... and while I'm not certain about this... I really think this creates a fraudulent situation at signing... anyway.. I hope you are loud with this... at best... it's a hard core (but legal) sales tactic and people need to be warned about it at worst... well... it's just illegal and maybe you can have recourse. It's certainly helped those of us here learn more slime tactics out there... so at least you've made certain people here won't fall for it keep us informed about what you do with this...
I've searched the web until my eyes hurt, so maybe another CreditNetter will have better luck. Is there some kind of rule, law, precedent, etc. that gives me a right to request/demand copies of all ,original documents that we signed or initialed? I figure if I can get a copy that was amended after we signed, I'll be in better shape as far as proving my story.
They waited one month to tell you that you had been declined for credit? I do believe that is a violation of the TILA. I can't remember how many days they have to notify you, but I know that it isn't a month! Does the contract that you signed give detailed information of the financing of the deal, that subject to credit approval these are the terms. Subject to denial of credit these are the terms. Did they ever discuss the terms of the layaway plan with you? Does your contract state that if you are denied credit the alternative will be layaway? I don't see how they can convert a contract for credit into a legally binding contract for layaway!
Actually, they denied me three months later. They kept calling me to badger about the rest of the deposit that we "owed". They kept reminding me that we signed a LEGAL CONTRACT. So I sent them a check for the $200. A few days after the I sent the check (I think it was late July or early August) we got a letter turning us down for the credit plan, and a book of payment slips for the layaway plan. I stopped payment on the check. I read line for line the sales agreement and credit apps, and found that the agreement did stipulate that if we were not approved for credit, we would be put on the layaway plan. They never told us this, it was in fine print. I haven't written to them since I started this thread, but I received a letter from them last week telling me that I was past due $25. I haven't made a decision on what to do yet. I've also been trying to figure out my TU CR too, and tweaking a budget for about an hour every night. Not enough time in the day. I now realize that I am a junkie when it comes to this board, though. I keep it minimized at work all day (maximized when the boss isn't around), and get up at midnight to lurk for an hour or so. On a side note, I came to a realization last night. I used to be afraid to know how much (little?) money was in checking, paid bills on the fly, was terrified to see my credit report, blamed my fiance for bounced checks, pulled money out of savings faster than we could deposit it, and half-heartedly aware of anything regarding my finances. (SHAME ON ME!!) I am now a FANATIC! I check and recheck my budget. I know where every dime of money is going before we even get paid. Our checks are direct deposited, so my fiance goes to the bank at the end of the week and withdraws our cash allowances for the next week. I know exactly when a bill should be paid, (according to the budget) and have them filed as such. We have money for emergencies in savings, and we've started saving to pay for the wedding. We have savings for when I have to take an unpaid maternity leave in February (yes, I'm expecting). And best of all...I DON'T WORRY ABOUT BILLS ANYMORE! It took some discipline, but it's actually kind of fun playing with the money on paper. Anyway, back to the subject of this thread. I guess I'm going to write a letter requesting a copy of all original documents signed and initialled by myself and fiance. Then I'll go from there to show I have proof of the "Sales Final" deception. The BBB is encouraging me to file a complaint. What I can't for the life of me figure out, though, is why this company won't just let this sale go. I'll post any updates when I get my butt in gear to work on this particular issue some more.
You have now brought up a very interesting point to this. Did they pull your credit between giving them the first check and the second? So... is this what happened? 1. you give partial deposit 2. You wait a while to pay the rest 3. they pull credit and know they'll deny you but don't tell you 4. they badger you into giving them the rest of the deposit... then... 5. Tell you you're on layaway....but only after getting the deposit in full b/c that would be fishy... but if they 1. took partial deposit and waited for the rest b/f running your credit 2. got the rest of the deposit 3. ran the credit then and only then 4. let you know several days later you're on layaway.. that would be more reasonable... but I'd still think they had some obligation to tell you whether you were approved or not within that 90 days... but the first scenario feels like a scam even more than the second... I agree that the second scenario may still incur Truth in Lending violations... after all... I think there's a 30 day window in which they have to send you the formal... You have been denied... we pulled x cra in the decision... letter...
hmmmm, Does the contract address what would happen to your deposit if not approved for credit? Are there any charges associated with the layaway? fees? I think this is key! I've changed my mind about this, this company is financing you and using the layaway provision as a way to get around the laws. And, layaways are cancellable. Any that I have ever used anyway. You select your merchandise. Based on a layaway policy, you deposit the stated amount. You make payments until the amount is paid in full. You pick up your merchandise. You don't pay in full, again by their policy, the layaway is cancelled and the merchandise returned. You retrieve what you have paid to date. You have to pay in full by a certain date, again by policy, if you don't pay in full, they cancel the layaway, return the merchandise and you get your money back. I'm thinking a layaway isn't a contract, even though it started out that way. There has to be something separate to cover the terms of the layaway. Sassy
I've read numerous complaints about these types of companies. I think it is terrible how they tried to manipulate you. I have been involved in a couple of contract disputes, both of which I won. They are not quite similar to yours but maybe you can get some ideas from it. One was from a car dealer. After the deal they called me saying I owed them another 2500.00. They insisted I had signed the contract saying I would pay the additional monies because I was upside down in my trade in. They claimed the finance person had "forgotten" to collect the money before I left. I read over my contract word for word and there was nothing in it saying I would pay additional money. They claimed to have the paper there but refused to give me a copy. I even told them as soon as I saw something with my signature saying I would pay it, that I would give them the money, they still refused. I have never been spoken to with such contempt in my life. I even had the owner call me and tell me I was nothing more than a low life thief. I was eventually served that they were taking me to small claims court. I then reported them to every government agency I thought would have any kind of interest in their dealings. I can't recall all of them off hand but I would say at least 5 including the BBB (who they had a clean report with amazingly). It took about 2 1/2 weeks for them to receive all the "notice of investigation" by all these agencies. I then received a phone call from asking what they could do to make it go away. I took 500.00 for my trouble and everything was dropped. I truly believe that even if they are on legal ground (shaky at best) they do not want a bunch of government agencies looking over their predatory business practices. I don't know if you have the nerve to do something like this but how about picketing in front of the next wedding show or in front of the hotel where they give their presentations. Even if you stood in front (on the public property) and handed out flyers asking potential buyers to beware of their business practices and/or to speak with you prior to having any dealings with this company. I can't imagine they would want to play hardball with you when they are not even out anything. Also, I nearly succumed to a similar hard sell. It was for a time share. I just went for the prize and was determined and absolutely had no interest in a time share. By time it was over, I was ready to sign the papers just so we could leave. I'm so glad my now x had the nerve to just get up and walk out because they were bound and determined not to let us leave without a time share. I really feel for you and hope you win. Please keep us updated.
Just out of curiousity, what brand of cookware was it? Was it the 21st century or Royal Prestige? I found tons of complaints about them!!
Check out #10: What is the source, is that TILA as well? That would cover the "all sales are final" slip-in after signing. Sassy http://biz.courttv.findlaw.com/sblg/SBLGCHP18_a.html THE TOP TEN DANGER AREAS The top ten danger areas leading to statutory damages, actual damages, attorney fees, and punitive damages for violating consumersâ?? rights are the following: Requiring a spouse to cosign a loan in violation of the Equal Credit Opportunity Law Pursuing collection efforts, lawsuits, garnishments, or repossessions in violation of a bankruptcy stay or discharge Failure of a credit bureau to prevent the same error from recurring in a consumerâ??s file in violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act Attorneys allowing debt collectors to use their names in collection letters without first adequately reviewing the debtorâ??s file in violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act New loans and second mortgages for debt consolidation or home repairs with outrageous terms Sellers raising the cash price and implementing hidden finance charges for high- risk debtors in violation of the Truth in Lending Act and state credit statutes Car lessors withholding interest on security deposits or improperly disclosing early termination penalties, purchase options, trade-ins, taxes, or warranties in violation of the Consumer Leasing Act Faulty notice of or commercially unreasonable auto repossession sales Used car sales involving reset odometers, salvaged vehicles or "lemon" laundering Consumer contracts providing that a lease, future service contract, or other transaction canâ??t be canceled or that a dealer is not subject to the oral promises of its employees Reprinted with permission from the Upstart Small Business Legal Guide by Robert Friedman Copyright © 1998 © 1993 by Dearborn Financial Publishing, Inc.® All Rights Reserved. FindLaw, Inc. (http://www.findlaw.com) offers lawyers, consumers, and small businesses a wealth of legal resources and information, including legal search tools, case law (including U.S. Supreme Court decisions back to 1893), legal news, real-time SEC filings, community discussion areas and online continuing legal education. Copyright © 2002FindLaw
What???? We bought our cookware from AC and we loved their service. We actually were called to a few "cooking shows" after attending a bridal show. I think the name of the other company was Royal Prestige and they were far more aggressive and pushy. My parents have waterless-greaseless cookware and are happy users for over 35 years. I found Associated Consultants presentation to be very informative as the dangers of crappy cookware is very serious (check for yourself! it's scary)...... And if you know how to cook with waterless cookware you'll wonder how you ever lived without it! We know because AC showed us how PERIOD!
