Oh goody an intellectual debate. I am at a crossroads over this campaign: Does Hussein's regimen need to change? Yes. Why? 1. He has broken sanctions for 11 years now. Eleven years and our country (and the rest of the U.N. has ignored it). He has continued to produce weapons of mass destruction and to starve his own people. The oil money that was to provide medical attention and food for his people has been used to increase his weaponary. 2. Not only has he broken sanctions for eleven years now, but he has "alleged" ties to the Taliban. It is a fact that some of the Bin Laden's own members live in Iraq, but some also live in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. How do we handle the this? Do I think it is about oil? Not really. It won't hurt us, but let's face it we do have a President that was a ex-oil man from Texas with oil ties. Do I think it is religious? Absoutely not. I do question the timing of Bush's plan though. This plan was enacted two months before elections...coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it. September 11th happened because we chose to ignore the warnings issued to us (and there were alot). This did not occur out of the blue - 1) the killing of 19 Marines in Saudi Arabia; 2) the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Ctr; 3) the bombing of African embassies; 4) the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen; 5) September 11th; 6) the next will occur and will be bigger We are seeing the destruction of our country because Bush Sr. did not finish the campaign that our country began, Clinton ignored the warnings (and bombings during his Presidency). A couple bombs over Iraq & Sudan? Oh please. Here is the reason that I question Bush II's rationale (besides elections). Bush II has been in office now for 22 months. September 11th occured 13 months ago. We knew Hussein was breaking sanctions for 11 years. Why are we waiting until now? By attacking Iraq (which is what we are going to do) whether the UN says hey or nay this is what we are up against: 1. Best case scenario - UN backing, the Iraqi people turn on Hussein and Hussein bolts. 2. Worst case scenario - no UN backing, the Iraqi people do not turn on the Iraqi government, Saddam seeing his regimen is in danger begins shooting his chemical and biological warfare on our troops and Israel. Israel gets upset and fires back. We have now just started WWIII because the Arab nations hate Hussein, but they hate Israel even more. No matter how we look at this we need to realize that men and women will die, that Hussein will not leave quietly, the deficit this war will create will deter any hopes of recovering our national economy, it will be a long war, and Bin Laden and his people will still attack us. Unfortunately, at this point if we do nothing...we are damned. If we do something...we are still damned. We have no choice. Dani
Sorry, that's what I got. As for attacks, the comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I am going to stay completely out of this thread now, except to read. It may be harder than applying for credit, but I know I can do it ;o)
whoaaaaaaaaa fave butch growling dude, What about OVARIAN fortitude? Sassy Edit: This is what I cannot rectify in my mind, the feeling, that we are being led down some road; it is an ominous road no matter which way you turn. And that is not to say that I disagree with the rationale and reasoning of our president. It is a nagging lump in my gut: "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." Julius Caesar Unfortunately, at this point if we do nothing...we are damned. If we do something...we are still damned. We have no choice. Dani Nodding with Dani
Great post Sassy, As sure as I am that this decision is the right one for our country, just know I have that lump in my gut too. But our decision MUST be made from logic not feelings. As all this war rhetoric heats up we're ALL, including the gov't, hoping someone will stick a bullet in the back of his head and all this will be unnecessary. Hope springs eternal. Come to think of it this is not really much different from some collectors trying to collect a debt that's not yours. They don't listen to reason and they don't comply with the law. They are terrorists, in a way. The ONLY language they understand is the use of force, (Filing a lawsuit).
Sassy, Ya know I luv ya, but I can't let that misquote pass. Caesar never said it and Shakespeare never wrote it. It's a hoax written by someone, IMNTHO, who was trying desperately to find something in The Bard's writings from hundreds of years ago to back up their dislike of our President today. Failing to find the right quote, they just made one up. Babwa Streisand quoted that same stuff recently at the Democratic Party's recent We Hate GW party and fundraiser, then had to issue an apology for the mistake. It was all over the web news sites about a week ago. OK, back to the foodfight. PS My only regret is that now I'm subscribed to this thread and I'm gonna get God knows how many notification e-mails...
Quixote, I love ya right back, smoochies!!!!!!! A HOAX, well thank you muchly for clearing that right up. Muchly lol. My apologies! Sassy
I rest my case! http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/ 'No Class' What Paul Wellstone might have thought of the memorial rally. Friday, November 1, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST MEMO To: Democrats From: Paul Wellstone Date: Oct 30, 2002 My friends, I miss you and send you love. That memorial rally was . . . something. I watched it from where I am, in the place beyond. It's wonderful here. You'll be amazed at what I think is one of the best parts. Two words: No politics. I love it. Who knew? But we have to talk. I know what you were trying to do the other night, or what you sort of meant to do. But it was bad. I know why you did it, or what was immediately behind it. Politics is a hard business. The U.S. Senate is up for grabs in a time of war. You wanted to get out the vote, rev up the troops. And of course you want to keep the Senate, of course you want to hold on to my seat, of course you want to win. I loved winning. But I have to tell you, I know things now that I didn't fully know before. You learn things here quickly. And you'll all learn them sooner or later and that's how it supposed to be. But up here your vantage point is altered. Your level of observation is changed. You can literally see the big picture. You can see people's souls. And I want to talk to you about that, and what you did the other night. You hurt a lot of people. You didn't mean to, you meant to be Happy Warriors. But you offended and hurt and antagonized more than half the country. And you have to think about why. Here, I think, is the reason: a dulling of the senses, a kind of despair that has led you to let politics completely take over your lives. That's the reason you treated a reflective and loving occasion as . . . well, as a big vulgar whomp-'em-stomp-'em rally with jeers and cheers and my casket as the stump from which you lambasted the foe. This is what I feel you have to think about. You can make your life sick and small, you can fill it with poison, when you turn everything into politics. And what makes me sad is not that you used my death to get out the vote. It's not that you were cold. It's that the only way you could show any warmth was through politics. That memorial was the triumph of politics at the expense of the personal. At the expense of what makes you human. Look at it this way with me for a minute. Indulge me. Imagine Trent Lott died in a plane crash last week. Please--stop cheering. That's the problem. Knock it off. Imagine Trent Lott dies, and there's a big memorial back home in Mississippi in some big auditorium. Half the Senate shows up to show respect: Trent was a nice guy. But they show up for another reason too: to show solidarity with democracy. To show we're all Americans together, and we respect the ballot together, and we are big enough to feel regard and respect across party lines. You know, where I am, party lines are nothing--they're a mirage, an old joke you half remember. But Lott's dead and the Democrats who worked with him in the Senate show up. I walk in--Paul Wellstone walks in, out of respect--and the 30,000 people in the auditorium jeer me. Ted Kennedy's behind me--he gets hoots and boos. Paul Sarbanes, same thing. The crowd doesn't honor our presence; the crowd lets us know we're the enemy. And then some Republicans get up and speak, and they jeer the Democratic party and say Democrats are the enemy. They use Trent Lott's corpse to make partisan gains, to get the turnout up next Tuesday. They turn mourning into mischief. What would you think if you saw that? Would you say, "What a great moment in the history of our democracy"? I don't think so. Let me tell you, when I watched the memorial and how you acted, I wasn't alone. Jack Kennedy was here, and you're not going to like this, but he said what he said the day Nixon had his meltdown in '62. He looked at you and said, "No class." John Adams is here too. He turned away from you in disgust. "Faction!" is what he said. It was no compliment. I'm telling you this because I care about you. You know what I know now in a deeper way than ever, in a new way? You can only push it forward with love and respect. No, I haven't turned into a wuss. You got to have hunger for better things, for more justice and a heightened life for everyone, but you can't get it through hate. It doesn't work! Or if it works it doesn't last. I want you to sit down for a minute and look at yourself. If you operate each day in politics with anger and resentment and finger pointing--"We're compassionate, the other guy's a bum"--it doesn't just reflect on your politics, it reveals your politics. It shows that what you say is a desire for justice is really a desire to push people around--"I hate those comfortable people, let's hurt 'em." That's just envy and revenge and resentment. That's just small-time, small-bore nothing. When you say you believe in good things but you give yourself license to be vicious in the pursuit of the good--well, you corrupt more than yourself. It's no good. When the rally was over, I grieved. And I have to tell you--this is very personal to say, but where I am it's the soul that counts and I'm talking soul: A lot of you--you need to stop, sit down, think, question yourself, look at your actions and ponder what you've become. And how somehow love for your side in the fight became hatred for the other. Let me be very candidly specific. Some of you need to get a good psychologist and a good holy man or woman, a priest or rabbi or minister--or how about all three--and figure out why you're turning everything in your life into politics. Because I have to tell you what I know: Politics is the biggest, easiest way in all of America to avoid looking at yourself, and who you are, and what fence needs fixing on your own homestead. A lot of you are in politics not beacuse you want to lead, but because you want to run. From yourselves. When you're in politics not to live life but avoid it, you become especially susceptible to a kind of polar thinking. You become convinced you're with the good team and the good people over here. You become convinced anyone who doesn't want the same policies you want must be bad. After all, you're good, so if they disagree they must be bad. When you're polar like that you dehumanize the people on the other side. And when you dehumanize them--well, then you wind up booing them at a funeral. And worse. I don't mean you can't be tough and honest in your judgments. There are some bad folks on the other side, it's fair to say it. But most of them? All of them? They're all the enemy? How could that be? There are people with the same sickness on the other side too. But I'm telling you, this polar thinking thing has gotten worse on our side the past few years. It's becoming the Democratic disease. This embittered sense of constant war with a wicked foe, and anything you can do to defeat the wicked is justified, and a corpse will do as a podium. And we have to stop it, both because we're better than that and because it isn't good for democracy. And democracy is still what Churchill said: the worst form of government except for all the others. So please ponder what I say. And if it applies to you, or you think it might, stop, sit down and figure out a plan to do something about it. That's what I have to say. Hope I didn't anger you; I just meant to warn you. And let me tell you: I miss you. They say up here the missing leaves, but it hasn't so far with me. Maybe it will with time. But I hope it doesn't embarrass you if I speak here as I would at a memorial for you. You meant the world to me. Every one of you changed my life. And I love you. Whether you win or lose.
I can think of few ways better to profane Wellstone's memory than to have a tired, right-wing hack like Noonan right a column, purportedly from his viewpoint, that criticizes the Democratic party, and is published in the Op-ed pages of the WSJ, one of the most right-wing forums in America. Truly shameful, and an example of the very polarization Noonan accuses the Democrats of. But then, neither Noonan, the WSJ, nor people of that political bent, are strangers to gross hypocrisy. A new, and revolting, low in partisan politics.
