Respnse 2 Doc's "Nutcase" Ltr!(long

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by monij2000, Apr 1, 2002.

  1. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member

    Hello everyone!

    I am pissed and need direction! A little background...

    My dh paid a collection acct. on 8/01 which he thought he may have owed, and sent the pmnt western union. They sent him a letter staing that they would report the account as "paid". We checked his credit report in March, and noticed that the account was still reporting as "collection" with balance. I asked my dh about the account, and we dont even recall owing PERIOD on this account (yet he went ahead and paid without req valid... ):) After we disputed w/ CRA, they updated to show "paid" (all 3 CRA's)

    Anyway, I sent Docs infamous nutcase letter via CRRR, and added the following to it" After many months of incorrectly reporting the account as unpaid, you finally admitted violating the federal Fair Debt Collections Practices Act and updated the item." Then proceeded to request validation.

    Here is the BS response I received from the CA's "General Counsel" Please read and advise on what my next step should be (DOC??? HELP!!! :)

    "Dear Mr. dh,

    I am in receipt of your letter dated X/XX/XX. You (yes, typo!) letter demands "validation" of your account pursuant to the FDCPA. Furthermore, you allege (CA name) failure to meet your demands may "constitute evidence of...intent to abridge one or more civil or constitutional rights" and "may provide a basis for criminal complaints being filed."

    Please be advised that your request has no basis in the laws that you cite and claim to understand. The above referenced account was settled in full (bulls**&&!!We did not "settle" he paid in full) with ouragency in August 2001 with a payment of $683.16. An update was submitted to the credit reporting agencies reflecting that the above referenced account was "paid" (yeah, 6 months AFTER he paid, and we disputed through CRA's AND due to their innacurate reporting, they were a reason why he got a higher interest car loan!!!) We (CA) did not agree to delete this tradeline in exchange for your settlement of the account and you have no legal basis upon which to demand that we do so; instead, we will accurately report the trade line as "paid"

    Furthermore, there is no legal requirement that we validate an account with the documentation you request, more than six months after settlement of the account. Please take all further action that you deem necessary.


    Ms. "General Counsel", Esq.

    SO...what do you think? Where do I go from here???????
  2. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Lizard....she basically threatened us to file....we, let's just say they happen to show up (slim to none, but they are in the same state as we are) would we have a case? Can she refuse to validate since he paid the account? Is there no recourse due to them inaccurately reporting the trde line as "collections" for 6 months until WE disputed w/ CRA's???
  3. Marie

    Marie Well-Known Member

    well... I don't know that the fdcpa requires validation after you've paid the account... or that it prohibits it either... so what...

    but if you have actual damages while the account was reporting as owed, you could certainly say they violated the fcra for not updating...

    You can sue for everything... but you've likely got them on fcra violations for not updating. the real issue is whether you have actual damages.

    I agree with Lizardking, if you file at all they'd likely delete just out of a nuisance factor... would have been easier to request validation before paying... ;)

    by the way, if after paying you really don't think you owed it in the first place, you could claim you were coerced into paying... and thus did but now are requesting validation because you're realizing you were intimidated into paying a debt that may really not be yours...

    if they did intimidate you it could be fdcpa violations... One thing is for sure, if while you're discussing this with them...if they pull your credit report again after paying you have another fcra violation... once a debt is paid there is no permissible purpose, and a company can't pull your report because you're in a lawsuit/ settlement negotiations etc...

    regardless of what you do, remember there's normally a one year sol for filing a lawsuit... so if you're going to push this, do it in a timely manner or you'll lose the ability to push it at all

    and... there may be nothing in the fdcpa requiring validation after payment, but there's nothing prohibiting it... the only thing is this, they just can't continue collection efforts without validation... which they won't because they have the money...

    although... maybe updating the bureaus could be considered continued collection efforts.... hey, that may be the fdcpa violation :)

    You asked validation after payment b/c you realized you were intimidated. they didn't produce any evidence but they did update the cras showing paid... bingo, continued collection efforts...

    and fcra violation... did it a bit late, didn't they... with actual damages you could not only get your money back if you really don't owe the debt, you could get at least 1k-2k for violations
  4. Marie

    Marie Well-Known Member

    wait wait wait... I thought collection agencies can't keep reporting a debt without being able to validate it... meaning, their continued reporting of the debt in and of itself will constitute a fdcpa violation until they validate... fcra violation if they can't prove the debt

    and I bet they didn't update your reports to show the item as "in dispute" when you requested validation...

    actually, if they haven't validated you do have them on violations :) now if you have actual damages you really do have a case if you can argue it in court :)
  5. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Marie! Do I need to outline the validations when I file? I need to do some homework in case i do...i will also research other Small claims links for advice on HOW to file...I won't even send them a demand letter, just slap them with a court date! Anyway, yes, my dh was intimidated! He disputed on the phone with them, and they told him he needed to pay or else his credit would be ruined indefinitely (can you believe that?) i had to educate DH..... if you guys have any links to previous posts on filing small claims...let me know! THANKS AGAIN MARIE!!!
  6. PsychDoc

    PsychDoc Well-Known Member

    Re: Respnse 2 Doc's "Nutcase" Ltr!(

    I agree with everything Lizardking and Marie have said. Don't forget that you're dealing with a PAID creditor, and there's no federal law that protects them against you. :) For that reason, you should endeavor to pester them into submission (without, of course, violating other laws related to stalking, unlawful intimidation, assault and battery, etc., LOL -- you know what I mean I hope).

    Another Creditnet member ("betacredit") developed a series of followups based upon the original nutcase letter. He refers to the followups as the "Son of Nutcase" letters, lol. He had been initially rebuffed with the original Nutcase Letter but saw success with the full sequence. Here's his testimonial:

    Below is the full sequence (original nutcase which of course you already have; followup #1; and followup #2). Consider staying the course. Then, if they still haven't had their fill of you, draw up a "pleading" (search "pleading" on this board for examples) and fax that to them. Your goal is to make them believe you are a litigious nutcase who may well cost them money by forcing them to answer a legal action (irrespective of its validity, which is another debate altogether) -- all over something that is PAID IN FULL, LOL. You want them to simply desire to be rid of you. Finally, as I've said, like most credit repair techniques this one may not work, but you've got nothing to lose by trying in this case. (After all, the debt is PAID, so they have no cause to come after you legally.)



    Name of Old Fully-Paid Acquaintance Address City, STATE ZIP

    To Whom It May Concern:

    I am formally requesting that you validate all tradeline notations you have submitted to the three major credit reporting agencies by NAME OF COLLECTION AGENCY or NAME OF ORIGINAL CREDITOR for me, YOUR NAME, for account number XXXXXXXXX.

    Due to possible inaccuracies in these CRA reports, I must demand that the validation I hereby lawfully request be in the form of a notarized statement by a person with original knowledge of the debt as it was constituted and who can testify that the debt was incurred legally, was not subsequently disputed as a result of returned, faulty, or recalled consumer products, was not utilized as a profit-loss tax deduction during the period it may have been payable, and was not claimed as a loss with any insuring entity during the period it may have been payable. Please be advised that I am not requesting a verification that you have my mailing address; rather, I am requesting validation, i.e., competent evidence that I had some contractual obligation sans consumer protection encumbrance which incurred the original claims associated with this tradeline.

    I have enclosed two documents which will verify my address: a photocopy of a [YOUR STATE] Driver's License and a photocopy of a recent [NAME OF UTILITY OR TELEPHONE COMPANY] statement.

    Please know that you have 30 days from the tracked and confirmed delivery of this lawful notice to either answer these demands or to remove the associated negative tradeline notations from the CRA reports. Any other action may constitute evidence of your intent to abridge one or more civil or other constitutional rights. Please be further advised that continued unsubstantiated reporting of possible inaccuracies to third parties may provide a basis for criminal complaints being filed in accordance with FDCPA, FCRA, and other federal statutes.

    I look forward to a timely and amicable resolution to this matter.

    Sincerely yours,

    Your Name Address City, STATE ZIP

    (continued in next post)
  7. PsychDoc

    PsychDoc Well-Known Member

    Re: Respnse 2 Doc's "Nutcase" Ltr!(

    (continued from previous post)


    Name of Old Fully-Paid Acquaintance Address City, STATE ZIP
    via facsimile transmittal

    RE: Account # XXXXXXXXX

    Dear Mr. NAME:

    Again, I am formally requesting that you validate all tradeline notations that you have submitted to the three major credit reporting agencies by XXXXXX for me, [YOUR NAME], for account number XXXXXXX.

    I am receipt of your correspondence postmarked [DATE]. You state that the account is reporting accurately in your opinion. However, it is not. I have contacted the alleged creditor, [NAME OF ORIGINAL CREDITOR]. They state that the account is â??an open account and paying as agreed (R1)." That is their â??understanding of the reporting.â? However, your credit reporting does not reflect the confirmed status by [NAME OF ORIGINAL CREDITOR]. Therefore, you are reporting incorrect information to the credit bureaus.

    If you do not cease reporting of the incorrect information, I will be forced to take further action. Please be advised that your blatant disregard and violations of the Fair Credit Reporting Act, Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and my rights as a consumer have caused harm to me by seriously affecting my otherwise unblemished credit rating, causing the denial of credit, as well as causing me to be charged higher interest rates and unfavorable loan terms.

    Note that the FTC has maintained that incorrect credit reporting is the legal equivalent of prohibited collection activity. I assume that you cannot validate this debt, therefore I am demanding that you cease any and all collection efforts associated with the above referenced account. You chose by doing business as a collection agency to maintain the highest possible records of accuracy and to maintain and collect valid debts.

    Iâ??m sure you are aware of the consequences in violating the Fair Credit Reporting Act and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act as well as the multiple violations your company is now responsible for.

    As per the FDCPA:

    § 813. Civil liability [15 U.S.C. 1692k]
    (a) Except as otherwise provided by this section, any debt collector who fails to comply with any provision of this title with respect to any person is liable to such person in an amount equal to the sum of --
    (1) any actual damage sustained by such person as a result of such failure;
    (2) (A) in the case of any action by an individual, such additional damages as the court may allow

    As per the FCRA:

    § 616. Civil liability for willful noncompliance [15 U.S.C. § 1681n]
    (a) In general. Any person who willfully fails to comply with any requirement imposed under this title with respect to any consumer is liable to that consumer in an amount equal to the sum of
    (1) (A) any actual damages sustained by the consumer as a result of the failure or damages of not less than $100 and not more than $1,000

    § 617. Civil liability for negligent noncompliance [15 U.S.C. § 1681o]
    (a) In general. Any person who is negligent in failing to comply with any requirement imposed under this title with respect to any consumer is liable to that consumer in an amount equal to the sum of
    (1) any actual damages sustained by the consumer as a result of the failure;
    (2) in the case of any successful action to enforce any liability under this section, the costs of the action together with reasonable attorney's fees as determined by the court.

    As a brief summary I state the following:
    Your company has failed to send the legally required validation of this debt. You have been notified that your actions are detrimental to me and that your company has violated (including but not limited to) the Consumer Credit Protection Act, the Fair Credit Reporting Act, and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

    Your company knew or should have known that the actions taken against me and the information collected about me was inappropriate and damaging to me. Failed to use reasonable care in the course of business and failed to use even minimal procedures to ensure that I was not harmed.

    You have communicated and are continuing to communicate incorrect and defamatory information to third parties including but not limited to, Equifax, Experian, and Trans Union.

    As a result of these blatantly reckless, wanton, and intentional acts, I have suffered and continue to suffer general and specific damages. I am also very upset at your company's intentional infliction of emotional distress, other diminishments of the quality of my life and refusal to follow the law.

    Please understand that I am extremely concerned regarding the harmful resultant consequences of the actions your company has taken. Please be advised that, if this matter is not resolved expeditiously, I will take any and all necessary steps to protect my rights.

    If you wish to resolve this matter, this will be your last opportunity to do so. The following item must be deleted from my credit files with the three major credit reporting bureaus (Equifax, Experian, Trans Union) within 5 days from the tracked and verifiable receipt of this letter. Forward a letter to me via facsimile and via regular U.S. mail stating it has been removed and will not reappear on my credit reports again. I will accept nothing less.

    Please be aware if these accounts are not deleted within 5 days of receipt, I will file a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, my state's Banking and Finance Bureau, and the Better Business Bureau. Also, note that section 1681s-2(b) of the Fair Credit Reporting Act creates a cause of action for a consumer against a furnisher of erroneous credit information (Nelson v. Chase Manhattan).

    For the purposes of 15 U.S.C. 1692 et seq., this Notice has the same effect as a dispute to the validity of the alleged debt and a dispute to the validity of your claims. This Notice is an attempt to correct your records, and any information received from you will be collected as evidence should any further action be necessary.

    Thank you and I look forward to your resolving this most expeditiously.

    Your Name Address City, STATE ZIP
    Your Fax Number



    Name of Old Fully-Paid Acquaintance Address City, STATE ZIP
    via facsimile transmittal

    RE: Account # XXXXXXXXX


    I received a message that you have called my place of residence and left a message regarding resolving the above-referenced account.

    My previous letter, submitted via facsmile on [DATE], outlined what action needed to be taken. I called you and left a message on your voice mail. Although I have requested that all contact be in the form of written correspondence, I attempted to again contact you via telephone at the number given (XXXXXXXXX) to resolve this matter amicably. It seems that you are either never at your desk or you do not answer your phone.

    Let me once again outline what action needs to be taken. Since you have not validated the above referenced tradeline within the given timeframe, you are to immediately delete this incorrect account, in the form of a Universal Data Form, from files with the three major credit bureaus (Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion), and fax proof of the deletion to me immediately! Furthermore, since you are unable to validate this tradeline, it is lawfully assumed that you are unable to verify this account with the credit reporting agencies as well.

    Also note, that section 1681s-2(b) of the Fair Credit Reporting Act creates a cause of action for a consumer against a furnisher of erroneous credit information (Nelson v. Chase Manhattan).

    Please be advised that failure to comply with my requests will result in a lengthy and expensive legal battle with your company. Considering that you are not located in my state, you will have to appear here or retain outside counsel to defend your interests. This matter can be resolved without such action.

    For the purposes of 15 U.S.C. 1692 et seq., this Notice has the same effect as a dispute to the validity of the alleged debt and a dispute to the validity of your claims. This Notice is and attempt to correct your records, and any information received from you will be collected as evidence should any further action as necessary.

    Thank you, and I look forward to your resolving this matter expeditiously, as time is of the essence.

    Your Name Address City, STATE ZIP
    Your Fax Number

    (end Nutcase sequence)

    I hope this is helpful.

  8. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member

    Re: Respnse 2 Doc's "Nutcase" Ltr!(

    Wow, Doc, THANKS! OK....time to go nutty on them! i will take your advice and continue with the letters (via CRRR...don't have fax unfortunately!) and if all else fails...we'll file in small claims court! Thanks again to all who responded with excellent info! I will keep you all posted!
  9. Hermit5

    Hermit5 Well-Known Member

    By chance did the letter have the "this is an attempt to collect a debt".. mini-miranda on it
  10. KHM

    KHM Well-Known Member

    Don't be so sure about a paid CA NOT willing to fight it out in court. Hubby has 2 paid collections with the same CA and we filed suit in January and they are taking it to court. I offered settlement for deletion and no money, they turned it down. I/We still don't have a court date, but we SHOULD be getting one anyday now. The last time I contacted the CA was in February and they haven't attempted to settle at all.

    I do have them on many violations, and at this point it's a matter of principle. Whether we win or not is not really an issue anymore, it's showing the courts how these CA's illegally do business. This CA violated the FDCPA on 2 separate debts, same violations. If they did it to us twice imagine how many others are getting railroaded by them!
  11. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member


    Did you send them a demand when you served them w/ small claims suit? Do you have have that available to email me? I sure would appreciate your help. Let me know how your case plays out!
  12. LKH

    LKH Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything that Doc, Marie and Lizard said. If you are going to go the nutcase route, just make sure, as marie said, you leave yourself enough time to file a lawsuit if necessary.
  13. lwg8tr

    lwg8tr Well-Known Member

    Is this the dreaded Collectech? They ignored all my requests for validation and my threats to sue. I posted a conversation I had a while ago with their supposed attorney and he dared me to sue. I disputed once again and they verified on Experian and Equifax. Well I have my complaint drawn up and I will post tomorrow. It's a Frankenstein of LizardKing's and a complaint that was filed against me. I have changed tack a bit though after seeing Christi's success with the CRAs, I will not just be seeking deletions but cash! What do I have to lose, $85 dollars and couple of trips to the courthouse, Collectech oohh so much more! I have the book "Sue the Bastards", excellent resource. One of the themes throughout the book is that small claims cases are business transactions. Most of us including myself take these things personally and this causes us to lose focus and make mistakes. Will Collectech spend the $500-$1000 on a paid collection, plus an excellent chance that they will lose. I bet they don't.
  14. monij2000

    monij2000 Well-Known Member

    No, not Collectech....some other "low key" CA I haven't seen discussed on this when are you filing on Collectech??
  15. KHM

    KHM Well-Known Member

    You're right the one hubby is suing is some small CA in NH. I am in the middle of moving right now, so Collectech is on hold. I am writing a letter to my supposed attorney telling him either shit or get off the pot!
    Collectech has since deleted from all 3 CRA's, not on their own, it came off after 30 days went by after I requested an investigation with the CRA's.

    I didn't send a settlement letter WITH the lawsuit, but about a week after I received my copy of the lawsuit paperwork, I faxed a settlement offer for $2500 plus deletion, they ignored it. Hubby called them and said he would like to settle and the guy was all set to settle, so I faxed over a settlement for deletion only and they never responded. I called the court and they DID file a response to appear in court, now I am just waiting for the court date.

    The letter was pretty simple:
    You know I filed suit on xx/xx.....we can settle for $xxxx and deletion, or drag it to court....this offer is valid for xx days...thank you.
  16. lwg8tr

    lwg8tr Well-Known Member

    They are real pieces of work..huh? I think they will probably blink a day or two before your case is to be heard. Here in Florida we have a pre-trial hearing where the haggling can begin. I will send no settlement letter. I will not call anymore. I will dismiss when and if I choose to.
  17. lbrown59

    lbrown59 Well-Known Member

    We can derail them by not getting on their train with our money.
  18. sal826

    sal826 Well-Known Member


    I really wish you the best of luck on this. It really steams me to see that bastard making such a joke of you're letter. It seems she is so sure you won't proceed to take them to court.

    I hope you take her up on her little dare, because I'm sure you'll squash them like the bugs they are.

    (Yes you guessed it, I loathe Collection agencies)

  19. james_e69

    james_e69 Member

    Not a bad start but you're going about it the hard way....

    These letters are not a bad start and in fact may be effective. However, there's a much better and far more effective way to do this. It's something called the proof of contract challenge.

    Never mind validatation / verification. What you need to work from is the basis of whether or not a contract exists between you, and the C.A. There never is: Here's why. Did you ever contract to do business with the collection agency? Of course you didn't. So never mind validation, what you want to make them produce is "Proof of Contract". They can't produce one which means that they're not entitled to enforce a commercial claim against you. You may end up in court in the end as with the validation issue, but this is a far stronger position. Most importantly this is best done BEFORE you pay them. If done correctly you may not have to pay them at all. This strategy is generally used w/ old debts/ junk debts that are beyond the statute of limitation for collections that the scumbag C.A.'s are trying to collect on and they know they can't. A good giveaway that they can't really get you is that they immediately start sending "discount" settlement letters. They start off small and get down to 50 cents on the dollar. Nonetheless this can be used with ALL collection attempts.

    As to the correction of your credit report, while this strategy may work, there's a far better strategy that ALLWAYS WORKS because the C.A.'s and even original creditors NEVER FOLLOW THE LAW. They know that the average consumer does not know squat about the law and they take advantage of that at every turn. But if you DO know the law and call them on it, you'll win every time and youâ??re far less likely to have to go to court. But keep in mind some times you absolutely must take them to task in court. What I'm talking about here folks is an FCRA section 623 Challenge. FCRA section 623 covers reporting requirements: How and when they must notify you etc. They virtually NEVER follow this rule to a point that stands up to legal scrutiny. If done correctly you will always win. In my 20 years of credit corrections the 623 challenge has never failed to work. I've never had to file suite nor have any of my clients. When they figure out that you're smarter than them and know enough about the law to really hurt them (in court) they usually give up.

    James Stubbs
  20. zhenya

    zhenya Well-Known Member

    James, contract does exist. You will not be able to win this arguement. All they have to do is to prove that a contract exists between you and an OC. In terms of use they will point out a line that says that an OC has a right to sell or otherwise assign collection rights.

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