I found this on a Yahoo group used by collectors. I found the tone of the message below interesting - sounds like the collectors truly fear this legislation: As posted on Yahoo: "HR 2036 is the "Social Security Number Privacy and Identity Theft Prevention Act of 2001." If enacted, this bill would criminalize many legitimate uses of a person's SSN. There is no exception for pre-litigation investigation or even post-judgment debt collection! As we all know, information is the grease that keeps the wheels of commerce and justice spinning. Criminalizing the legitimate use of personal identifiers - e.g., SSNs, DOBs, DLs, addresses, etc. - is an ineffective proxy for enforcement of other laws. Banning the legitimate sale or possession of nine-digit numbers as a crime prevention measure fails miserably. It makes about as much sense as banning telescopes in order to stop peeping Toms, or confiscating automobiles to stop drive-by shootings. The full text of this evil monstrosity can be viewed at http://thomas.loc.gov - Enter H.R. 2036 in the search box. The opposition are mobilizing their forces to push for tighter controls on information. They don't think that GLB Act goes far enough. Their goal is to close off all supposed "loopholes." Their agenda is to make it a crime to obtain a debtor's credit report without the explicit permission of the debtor. They want child support collection brought under FDCPA. To them, routine skiptracing among creditors and collectors constitutes some kind of egregious invasion of privacy of the poor old deadbeats, and should be punished with stiff civil and criminal penalities. Skiptrace a debtor, go to jail. They do not care if you call yourself an investigator, debt collector, process server, or judgment enforcer. They want to shut down your access to credit info, property records, tax assessor records, criminal records, civil litigation, vehicle records, voter rolls, etc. Or they want you to allowed only santized versions of records, which are essentially useless for our professions, and whatever is in the white pages. Here are examples of one of their websites. http://www.privacyrightsnow.com/ http://www.pirg.org/press/privacy6_21_01.html Are we going to let them shut it all down? Are we going to let the ship go down without a fight? Are you going to just shrug and think to yourself, "I'll let someone else put out this fire"? Or are you going to suit up and join the fray? HR 2036 is before the House Ways and Means Committee. There are so many things wrong with it that I don't see how it can really be "fixed." This bill is a lame horse that should be put out of its misery. Having said that, the bill should at the very least be amended. I am asking each one of you to write a letter to your Congressperson, and also to at least one member of the House Ways and Means Committee. Send the letter under your company letterhead. If you do this, we have a chance of killing this monster in its crib - or at least amending it. If you don't do this, it will probably be the most devastating legislative setback we have ever suffered. Do not delay!" They sound kind of frightened to me!
May the government do something right for once and pass this bill. Our social security numbers were meant as a means of identifying individuals who paid into the Social Security Trust Fund. They were in no way to be used as a mean of identification for our purchases, personal information, medical records, and day to day living. I'm going to send a letter off tomorrow to my Congressmen and asking them to support it wholeheartedly. Dani
WHAT??? You don't think your SS# should be your SAMS membership # ??? You don't think your SS# should be your voting # ??? You don't think your SS# should be your student # ??? You don't think your SS# should be your driver's license # ??? You don't think your SS# should be cross referenced on the (WITNESS) accident report... ??? SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO USE THIS SS# FOR ??? SOMETHING LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY AND INCOME TAX PURPOSES ONLY...NOT FOR ID????????? HUMMMMMMM...THAT IS WHAT MY SOCIAL SECURITY CARD ACTUALLY SAYS........
SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO USE THIS SS# FOR ??? SOMETHING LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY AND INCOME TAX PURPOSES ONLY... Now, that is an idea. Dani
Lemme guess...Dubya doesn't support this bill? Screw the pro business, anti consumer republicans. I'm looking forward to the impending economic collapse, thanks george!
Mentioning the pending economic collapse. I'm terrified of this occuring. I read today that QWest is laying off 4,000 people. The unemployment rate is at 4.9% and doesn't look like it's going to get much better anytime soon. It looks like the businesses being hardest hit right now are in the telecommunications and technology fields, but soon it will creep into the retail and service industries. Maybe now is a good time to reduce my Amex debt. The only other debt I have is my car and soon, house. Ugh! I really hate economic cycles. Dani
This is my favorite passage from the bill summary: "Provides that any person who refuses to do business with an individual because the individual will not consent to that person's receipt of his or her SSN shall be considered to have committed an unfair or deceptive act or practice in violation of the Federal Trade Commission Act, except in certain cases required under Federal law." Of course if it passes, we will probably have to give a DNA Sample to apply for credit. I can see it now. "Please sign and date your application at the bottom of the page. Pluck a single hair from your head and insert into the glassine envelope, seal and initial the envelope flap. Use the cotton swab and gently swab the inside of your cheek, then reinsert into the holder and mail both items with your application. Be sure to attach required postage."
I am NOT saying that when applying for credit, you should not have to give SS#...IT IS ALL THE OTHER THINGS... INSURANCE DRIVER'S LICENSE SAMS ACCIDENT WITNESS REPORT VOTING SCHOOL IF THE LAW INCLUDES 3 PLACES IT CAN BE USED...FINE 1) SOCIAL SECURITY ACCOUNT 2) EMPLOYMENT~~~I.R.S.~~~STATE TAXES 3) APPLYING FOR CREDIT. (IF DNA OR SS#...I WILL GIVE SS#)...
Of course the DNA reference was a joke. I don't think giving your SSN for anything other than Social Security purposes should be valid - ESPECIALLY for CREDIT. As a "Free Nation" we should not be subject to any type of national identification number - it violates privacy and stinks of "Big Brother" syndrome. Since it seems to be good enough for a credit card company to insist an account is mine - based on the fact my name and address match - I should be able to identify myself in the same manner. My personal information should not be for sale by businesses, after all I am not receiving royalties from the sale of this property. Perhaps that is an idea - make the CRA's and creditors pay me a royalty every time they sell MY INFORMATION. It would be illegal after all, if I were privy to their internal proprietary information and I sold the information to another business.
The whole information brokering industry is scared to death of this bill. They are predicting dire consequences and doom and gloom if SSN use is restricted to what it was ORIGINALLY intended for, which was the administration of and collection of taxes for Social Security. For many years I have refused to give my SSN to anyone unless it was ABSOLUTELY necessary in order to get what I wanted, like credit. Several years ago I had more than one fight with health insurnace companies who insisted on using it as an ID number. Today, with the publicity given to identity theft, most of them will assign a number outside of the 'valid range' (greater than 699-99-9999) for you upon request. Many states have let you opt out of using it as a driver's license number. More and more people are catching on to the fact that the SSN has evolved into being the 'key' to one commercial identity. For every data hungry, privacy invading, information broker they want to parade before a congressional committee to tell them how bad it would make their life if they actually had to work hard for their living, there are probably dozen of people with lengthy horror stories about having their identity stolen and used by criminals to defraud creditors, leaving them to clean up the mess, which can take years. These people would like nothing more that for you to have to fork over your SSN everytime you buy something so they can track you, profile you, pigeon hole you, send you targeted junkmail, call you on the phone with fabulous offers and scams, etc. We've already seen cases where supermarket club cards have come back to haunt the users in subsequent litigation. What's to stop some overzealous law enforcement officials from scouring though all of you data and targeting you for a criminal investigation simply because they didn't care for what you bought. Did you buy 8 huge boxes of zip lock baggies? Gee, you must be selling drugs. No matter it was an art teacher buying them so a third grade class could do a craft project or something like that. Perhaps your life insurance company would like to know how much red meat you buy, or your automobile insurer would like to know if you buy liquor? The would find it just SO convenient to have all of this information about you collected and stored in one place, neatly indexed by your SSN. They wouldn't have to do any work at all, just type in a query on their computer and get what they needed. The people and organizations who are screaming about this bill are the ones who are in the privacy invasion business. I can't think of any reason I would like to be targeted by a private investigator, collection agency, or other such organization. Remember the only one who is really going to protect your privacy is you. Don't give you SSN unless you are absolutely required to, even if it's inconvenient. When I wanted electric and gas service in my new place, the utilities wanted my SSN. I refused and so they said I had to come in to their office with ID. So I went in with my Passport (which doesn't have your SSN printed in it, at least mine from 1995 doesn't. Nor does it have your address in it, unless you write it in the space provided.) They wanted a driver's license. I told them I didn't have one, so they grumbled and accepted my Passport as ID. About once a year I get a call from them saying they want to 'update my records' and request my SSN, I turn around and ask them if I've been paying my account in an unsatisfactory manner. They either say 'no', or "I don't know" and I just say, "Well, I'm happy with the current arrangement we have. Thanks for calling." and hang up.
WHEN I MOVED, SOME OF MY UTILITIES WANTED SS#...I SAID NO!!!!!!!!! I have a "DOCUMENTED PAYMENT HISTORY FROM TWENTY+ YEARS"...DO YOU WANT IT? NO. NOT that they need it (SS#)...(MY INSURANCE COMPANY GOT MY CREDIT REPORT WITH-OUT MY PERMISSION & DID NOT FOLLOW MY REQUEST TO NEVER PULL THE CREDIT REPORT)...they almost lost my business after 25 years... I just got a letter..."WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REACH YOU BY PHONE" Please fill out this brief questionnaire... 401K (HIM) 401K (HER) INSURANCE @ WORK (HIM) INSURANCE @ WORK (HER) ANTIQUES SPECIAL COLLECTIONS (COINS/STAMPS/CARS/ETC) OTHER PROPERTY NOT WITH THIS AGENCY HOME PHONE WORK PHONE (HIM) WORK PHONE (HER) CELL PHONE (HIM) CELL PHONE (HER) LOCAL EMERGENCY PHONE (NEIGHBOR/RELATIVE/FRIEND) WHEN OUT OF TOWN GOES ON AND ON.................. IT GOT FILED UNDER "FORWARD ASAP TO THE LANDFILL (DUMP)" I would rather pay one year in advance than have them NOSING in my credit report!!!!
So you expect potential lenders to simply dole out credit limits and mortgages without a system to identify who you are and, more importantly, that you are a bad credit risk? What difference does it make? The only thing this law will accomplish is forcing the government to issue a "CREDIT HISTORY ID" or "CONSUMER CREDIT NUMBER" that gets passed around. Call it what you want, it won't matter. Whether or SS#, a Credit History ID or some other form of identification, lenders will need some method of identifying individuals for the sole purpose of extending credit. Do you think by hiding your SS# that it will HELP potential creditors from authenticating who you really are when you apply for credit? It will only make matters worse for consumers -- if they have no system of (as close to) absolute authentication/identification, they will simply NOT extend credit. Putting a roadblock in place does nothing to repair the highway. You've got to fix the damn road, not make it more difficult to navigate. John Shimmer Millennium Credit Building Strategies Home of the Ultimate Creditor/CRA List www.millcbs.com
Credit has been around much longer than SSN's have - lets see, I suppose everyone who owned a home before ssn's purchased it with cash.
SSN's are linked to too many different records. I understand they have to know how well we pay our bills, and have a way to verify who we are, but to have one number associated with eveything is the cause of a lot of problems. If DL uses one number, credit files use another number, medical records another, insurance another, etc, then ID theft would be much more difficult, a collector or skip tracer would be forced to verify more than one thing. And they should not be able to sell those numbers!! These collection companies sell these debts over and over, even after they have been paid!! After they are discharged in bk!! Someone can take care of a debt, and still be dealing with it 15 years later!!! It's absurd - if they had to verify more than one thing, and they couldn't access credit reports without some kind of authorization, it would seriously curtail this kind of ridiculous activity.
What I object to in the SSN being a universal identifier. The issue is not about credit reporting and identification. People have names. People have addresses. People have dates of birth. There plenty of other means of identifying people without assigning everyone a single number. As we've already seen this can be terribly misused. The chief cause of identity fraud has been the lackadaisical attitude on the part of creditors to open accounts and send out cards based upon an SSN match. My main objection is not so much for using SSNs for credit. I'm more concerned about cross-referencing between what should be unrelated things, like my medical insurer cross referencing info about me with a CRA or a bank that has my SSN for tax reporting purposes or correlating my supermarket purchases, etc. Basically these are things that are none of their business. This whole topic goes well beyond credit reporting. It's about privacy. The CRAs are the most visible information brokers out there. You, as the consumer, are NOT their customer. You are the commodity they trade in. Information about you. They don't care if what they have is correct or incorrect, as long as someone wants to pay for it. You are really just a pain in the butt when you object to them sending out incorrect information. You are a cost, not revenue. They want you to shut up and go away. The less noticeable ones are things like Acxiom and the Debit Bureau, which deals with other personal info, like demographics, your buying and spending habits, your lifestyle, etc. They really want to stay off your radar screen, because most people would be incredibly angry if that found out exactly what kind of personal information they were selling about them. You are the first line of defense for your own privacy.
You guys are great. Thanks for the info, and for the great arguments in favor of the bill or even stricter protection. I disagree that this bill would make credit less available. It WOULD cut down on those cookie-cutter platinum solicitations a bit, but I think the main effect would be to cause banks to emphasize relationships over credit reports. You would get a small card to start with any bank, just as you do now with Macy's, for example. And then, based on your payment habits, you would get limit increases on a regular basis.
In fact, this bill could HELP some creditors, those willing to take a chance on you. For example, Citibank took a chance on me with my first $800 card in 1993. Providian took a chance on me and gave me $3350 in credit within less than a year. (For a price, but nevertheless they took a chance.) Texaco gave me my first gas card ($225) and Macy's gave me my first retail card ($200.) If credit reports were less thorough due to this bill, then certain creditors (MBNA, First USA) would be less willing to extend the terms necessary to steal away customers who started out with these cards. Enterprising creditors could profit from relationships they've already developed. Then they would continue giving people a chance, since they could look forward to predictable rewards in the future.
