Dani, Ahhhh but you neglected to mention what county and state your sister lives in....small overlooked piece of info. I defy anyone who lives and works in LA to spend only $40/month on gas...they burn that much waiting in the LA freeway parking lot!....and btw where was the car insurance $$s, Dani....that has to be included in that number. The only stat that you cited that held water, in my opinion, was the ABI's stats....but then you went on to multiply 1st quarter by 4 to determine 2002 yearly stats. Very faulty methodology. And please tell me what glass ball do you think the Washington Post was looking into to grab their numbers....citing stats using doubtable stats is a double negative...but in the world of logic...unlike in math...that does not equal a positive. All well and good that you are a creditor with a "heart" let me know when the bk reform act is passed and you have no interest in getting your business's debtor's financial records because on its face you will believe they can only pay you $50 a month. I think your responses are helping to bring home my points and for that I thank you. clc
By the way the Elentra was purchased in Washington, DC (where my sister resides) I guarantee we match Los Angeles in traffic. Anyone who has been around I-495 during rush hour knows we match L.A. when it comes to traffic congestion. And anyone who has shopped in DC knows our prices aren't the cheapest in the country. As for my companies clients prospects of filing BK...even if they did, as long as they had a payment plan or a settlement in place I would never pull their BK files. As long as they are paying me it is none of my business who they file against or how much they can afford. We are a small business trying to make it all we want is to be is paid for the work that we performed (like any other company). Dani
One interesting point that has NOT been discussed by anyone, is what effect, long term will the new BK bill hve on the US economy. Sure, short term, the cc companis and multinational banks will find it easier to wring out a few $$ more from the poor,so they can add some more $$ to their CEO's millions. But where will those newly destitute people go when they cannot pay their mortgages, or rent, much less qualify for any new purchases, on relief? What will happen to the housing market with a surge of foreclosures, what will happen to the economy when the BK law turns into the demon law of unintended consequences.One quick answer is that although State's have no jurisdition ,in general over BK law, they DO over State exemptions, and those State exemptions ALSO apply to judgment liens. So -those State's without homestead exemption, or high personal auto and and other exemptions, will quickly move to increase their exemptions so that those folks who no longer qualify for ch 7, will get non enforceable judgment liens instead.The State's will shorten the time those liens can stay active, and save themselves from bankrupting their State's welfare funds.
The miles driven in D.C. versus the miles driven in LA is not how its factored. But because you gave me her location I can tell you that she is allowed $313/month....which is higher than the LA area. But you didn't factor in car insurance...and I live in the Philly area...I know people who work in D.C. and the environs who pay hefty car insurance. So with her monthly pmt, gas and car insurance...if your sister is under the age of 26 no matter where she lives I am sure she pays hefty car insurance rates. This is really beside the point...what I'm trying to indicate is how stringent the standards are...$313 a month for owning a car in D.C. is still very stringent...which goes to my point of having to live a bare bones existence the 3-5 years you are trying to compete a 13 plan. This is the last post I am doing on this subject... I didn't start this thread or the bk reform effects thread to get into back and forths with anybody. I have alot better things to do with my time. Bk reform isn't going to touch me anytime soon as I am still paying into 13 plan so I'm covered. Maybe after the reform act is passed and everyone realizes what the downwind effects are the naysayers here can figure it out on their own. clc
Oh geezy peezy. We are now looking at the economic fallout of BK reform. The year, 1929 is going to occur all over again because of this reform. Did the world crumble after welfare reform? We are all still standing...somehow. This law hasn't even passed yet and we have people running around yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." If...that's IF this BK reform passes, this same law that was supposed to have passed back in 1999 and three years later still has not; it is highly doubtable of causing financial detoration throughout the US and global economies. Enron didn't collapse us, the World Trade Center bombings didn't collapse us, but the reform of some BK provisions will...? We are grasping onto straws now. BK effects roughly .74% of the U.S. population per year. 270 million people/2 million people filing BK annually (and that is if the economy really really stinks). I am sorry, but much worse things could happen: o Communism coming to the U.S. o World War III occuring o George Bush running again for re-election. Instead of focusing on the way that BK is destroying people, focus on how to stop people from filing BK...credit management education, better insurance (medical, life, disability) coverage (especially for those that don't have any), emergency planning/savings, the list goes on. Want to think strategically? Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. Dani
excuse me, credit repair isn't just about trying to obtain more credit so you'd be in more debt then contemplate bk. unfortunately more credit is part of the formula for a higher credit rating. fact, the majority cannot shellout $20k+ for a car and $100k+ for a house. so even with just these two necessities, it's in everyone's interest to not only qualify but the get the best finance terms as possible. isn't that what everyone's trying to achieve here? hth (= hth does not need/want more debt, just refinance for better terms =)))
Just my .02 Since finding myself self employed for the last year, I have been more and more concerned with banking privacy. Who needs to know just how much I make a year? The IRS knows what they need to know. That might sound shady, but it is what it is. Read up on Trusts, IBC's and LLC's. A combination of them can ensure that your private assets, as well as your income are hidden almost too well. If you are self employed and the increasing scrutiny of the IRS bothers you, move your $$$ offshore. What can they say then? This obviously isn't for everyone, Just sharing.
Dani, One small problem I see, with the auto portion only, is the effect that credit scores are having on insurance. It is not unreaslistic to see a preminum of $2000+ for a family with teenage kids and a BK in LA or NY. Take out $200 a month for insurance and a $297 allowance looks pretty bad. $9.23 / week on gas with a family and a commute is hard to do. God forbid that your 4 year old car breaks, You are done for then. If each individual situation is not taken into account people will be hurt and it is usually those that can least afford it who hurt the most. I doubt that the vast majority of families filing a BK this year had a Viper they tried to protect. Isn't that buying right into this "Bankruptcy Abuse" smokescreen that is being used to pass this pro-business legislation.? JohnM JohnM
John I agree with what you are saying concerning the car situation. We are viewing two different sides here. I think there is some misconception between those that file BK 7 and BK 13. If someone has no assets there is nothing to collect from. Let's be perfectly honest, many of those that file BK 7 have little to no assets, low income, and high debt. They will not fall under Chapter 13. Why not? Because you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. If someone has nothing, what is there to take? I think the BK reform's goal is to reduce the abuse of the BK system (and there is alot of that going around). When someone has a house that is worth $350K and a car that is $30K, and $40K worth of credit card debt...I am sorry, but sell the freakin house. You don't get to write off $40K worth of credit card debt and keep your home and Explorer. Or take O.J. or any celebrity in Hollywood. Are you telling me Toni Braxton and Billy Joel are living penniless. Why do they get to keep their mansions, their Mercedes, and their money but benefit under BKs laws? (I realize their circumstances are different but it was just an example). You don't think they could afford to pay it? A divorced mother with three children, who lives in a small home (worth $80K, with a $75K mortgage) and drives a 1976 Chevy Nova, making $1000 a month will still qualify for BK 7. There are no assets involved...what is the court going to take? Not a thing. She won't and can't qualify for BK 13. Dani
You don't call that mother of 3 destitute???? How in the hell do you pay a 75K mortgage + tax escrow plus car maintenance (which has gotta' be high on that old car) on 1K a month plus feed and clothe 3 kids???? Pluheeze you are just reaffirming everything I've said. As for the car example....I guess John's example was more clear than mine??? BTW Washington DC has the 2nd highest car insurance rates in the USA after NJ...avg $1143 a year. So even with your sister's jiffy new korean car she still will be over the "formulae" for allowable car expenses. I also disagree with your description of those that file 7s and those that file 13s....as it stands right now the main reason for filing a 13 over a 7 is to KEEP assets that are not exempt. So the difference is ALL about exemptions and not about income. There are many states that have very stingy exemptions and do not allow a filer to "opt in" to federal exemptions which are more generous than states' exemptions with the exception of Texas & Florida which both have uncapped homestead exemptions. As with anything in life there will always be people who abuse but in my experience most people that file bk do it as a last resort. The attending pain and humiliation of not paying your debts is not something people jump into with lots of glee. There are plenty of members of this forum that got a "fresh start" because of bks...they all had their own stories...and none of the stories I read was because they wanted to abuse or defraud their creditors. I dare you to call these people "deadbeats" to their faces...especially after reading about their progress from bk hell to credit freedom. I mean it must be nice that your biggest concern in life is whether AMEX blue charges 12.3% or 9.9%...that would certainly keep me awake at night. Much like the FCRA & FDCP & TILA....the bk laws are just as available to everyone. And anyone who is under the credit gun and can't see their way clear is free to access them. I support them and their rights to use them. As far as worrying about the USA turning to communism...hmmm didn't I read the Washington Post headline about 10 yrs ago "Berlin Wall Falls"...and it seems that Russia is now our ally in the war against the terrorism. Fearing communism (die you pinkies) is somewhat politically passe right now (McCarthyism is one of the blackest marks on our political history). I have alot more concern that Saddam Hussein is going to unleash biological holy hell or a suicide/homicide bomber will be my fellow passenger on a flight to anywhere. As for Bush getting re-elected (I am an independent btw) his popularity is still at 70% despite his naysayers...but the Nov. elections will certainly be telling...as far as I'm concerned the 107 Congress has been worthless...reactive to the extreme...not proactive on anything. So concerned about bk reform but can't pass a bill that would take care of the prescription needs of our seniors. So you can have 'em all as far as I'm concerned. In conclusion....to the people here who have genuine concern about the bk reform...please educate yourselves. It doesn't hurt to know what new powers this bill is giving to your creditors. Don't let them catch you with your proverbial pants down here. As JohnM stated this is definitely a pro-credit granting business legislation...and when it passes it will have far reaching effects on how you acquire, maintain and discharge debt. clc
Dani, How about a divorced Mom, ex-wife of a police officer, making $18,000, one kid full time in daycare, two in after school daycare, two year old car w/ three years of payments($300/month) left, and $20,000 of debt. She was renting a $90k home for $675, which was exactly her child support payment. Do you know a BK attorney and the courts had her do a Chap 13 and pay $200/month on a 5 year plan and wanted her to reaffirm the car payment (at full cost)! Her assets that she didnâ??t want to lose, $3,000 of furniture, a couple of AC units and two TVs she bought so her kids would have beds and a couch and a TV to watch. I went ballistic; I asked her what idiot advised you to do this??? When we talked a little more and I made were see what see would pay($12,000) for keeping next to no assets, she had to fight with the attorney and trustee to change to a Chap7.She gave back her car, her parents bought my 93 Jeep Grand Cherokee for $3K and gave it to her, the furniture store never even got the furniture, (the trustee said cost of disposal exceeded cost of sale, therefore no sale). She came out with a fresh start as she should! Dani, for every story of abuse, there are a hundred stories like this. This was a REAL person not some celeb with a great lawyer. In America justice has always said "It is better to let a hundred guilty men walk free than to hang on innocent soul", those that talk Bankruptcy abuse and talk about OJ want to turn that saying on it's head don't you think? JohnM ps..The OJ thing made me want to hang an innocent person if we could hang OJ a hundred times so I understand your frustration about an unusual and\or abusive case. That case just shows the danger of using extreme cases to base opinions on!
At this point I have given us on this thread, everything I say (Bush being re-elected...was a joke) is being turned into some circus show. I get a lecture on how Bush has a 70% popularity rating...what does this have to do with BK reform. Bush is the one that agreed to sign the law once it reaches his desk. And clc you really have alot of nerve to suggest that whether my 12.99% to 9.99% Amex Blue APR must keep me up at night. I worked hard for my credit and because I have been responsible (and lucky) I am get to reemed out. Give me a break. Concerning my sister's insurance (we have it both through Erie out of PA). She pays $65 dollars a month for the Elentra and I pay $50 a month for my Japanese SUV. Hers will go down next year because Erie drops the rates at 24 years of age, instead of 25. I highly doubt you believe me, but at this point I don't care. I can offer you are policy numbers and agent's name if would like proof. Dani
Dani- I want to apologize to you for coming on so hard. I don't think it's a secret on this board how I feel about the new bk reform. I was having a bad day yesterday and I took it out on you unnecessarily. JohnM made the same points just in a much nicer way. There are members, some are old timers whose opinions and ideas people respect, who were bk filers. Take dogman for an example. Now you might say his story is unusual but I think not...his story despite the gravity of his illness at the time is more typical of those that file bk than that of those that abuse. Yes the state of Fla is full of abusers....Scott Sullivan, ex-CFO of WorldCom, who was arrested yesterday for the WorldCom scandals has a $15MM estate now under construction in Boca Raton, Fla. I wonder if HE is going to file soon? And if he does believe you me I will be as angry about it as you. I agree with you that personal financial management education in the school system, university system and in continuing ed systems would be a small first start. In the bk reform act there are provisions for just that....but as a person who is cynical of any govt run bureaucracy I'm afraid the programs devised under this bill will be a poorly run operation. Yesterday I did the bk 13 paperwork for a client (I only pinch hit in the bk area as I'm an estates and trust paralegal)...her income was $1100/month from Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI). Her total debt was $12,000...mostly cc debt and a car loan. She owns a house with a small mortgage (this is what she wants to protect). She explained to me in her intake interview that her cc debt was due to using her cards to pay for her prescriptions as she is a medicare recipient and has no pharmacy coverage. Her car was purchased new a Ford Focus 1999. She was upside down on the car loan. After doing her schedules including the income and expenses she will be paying $65 a month for 3 years to the bk trustee. The bk will also "cram down" her car loan (which btw was interest heavy due to the fact she had poor credit when she bought it). I only hope that this woman can complete her plan. I tell this story because it is a typical one. So while I agree with you vis-a-vis being responsible regarding the use of credit and paying your bills on time...I also know sh*t happens and when it does people should have options available to them. Despite what you think the new bk act has very few loopholes on its face. I can guarantee that the high priced bk attys are already studying it to find them for the Scott Sullivan's of the world but there are few advocates willing to put the time in for the regular joe schmoe like me. For this reason I am going to do it on my own using all the resources I have including lunchtime discussions with the attys I work for. In this way I hope to be able to contribute this info to the creditnetters, new and old, that might need it in the future. clc
www.abiworld.org has a couple of tidbits this morning. Click under bankruptcy news and Sen. Schumer says next move is up to house Republicans then, scroll down to the 4th item where Cong. Moran says he probably should have filed bk instead of taking the "sweetheart deal" from MBNA!
Dani, You must be rather young, I would guess. I encourage you to keep your thoughts coming but you may want to open your mind to the possibility that others may be right.
Butch, I appreciate you pointing out my lack of maturity, but referring to the circus show comment we had completely gone off the topic of BK reform. It turned into how much my sister's car insurance was compared to L.A., it turned into talking about Bush's popularity rating, etc. Because I do not think BK reform will damage society as a whole, I am regarded as selfish, narrowminded and immature. The points I make and the proof I offer is completely disregarded or turned around. A debate is good, especially where two conflicting views are given...it doesn't make either party right or wrong...just different. Dani
Reasonable insurance is probably at least $100 a month. Then there's incidental non-warranty maintenane and repair of the vehicle. You're definitely over $363 a month now. For one of the cheapest cars on the market that depreciates like crazy. I have a decent job in a decent area, but I can't afford housing close to my work. My round trip commute is 70 miles a day. Even with a car that makes 35 mpg, I spend $70-$100 a month on gas. According to http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/es/urban/atlanta/lessons.htm , a study on Atlanta sprawl (where I live), states that we have an average commute longer by far than any other city on Earth. Also, a lower car payment equals a longer loan term and a larger interest payout. I'm looking at getting a new car soon. It's the right season for a good deal, and I desperately need one. But I can't see how I'm going to be able to do it for less than $350 a month just for car payment an insurance. I'm looking for a new Focus or a Civic if I can find a bargain basement price. $297/mo is extremely conservative expensing for automobile transportation costs. -ingenue
Oh Cmon Dani, You're being too sensitive. You are already a well respected partipant of this board and have been around long enough not to let this stuff get to ya. You don't need to prove anything. You already have. I didn't mean to imply that you were immature. And FYI I also don't believe the new BK laws will destroy our economy
Maybe the best thing to do is contact the IRS to express our opinions about the low auto expense that is given to automobiles for those who file BK 13 under the new reform. Some people don't have brand new cars - many are older than five years (and are paid off)...at least in my neighborhood. Many neighbors are one income families and the homes are nice, but most can't afford two (or even one) new car sitting in the driveway plus the mortgage payment and additional necessities. Most of the cars are 5-10 years old. I drove a 1986 Honda for years. It didn't give me any trouble and there was no car payment..I miss those days. It cost me probably $50 in fuel a month and that was only because I was going back and forth to school...work was only a five minute drive. Insurance at that time cost me $150 a month, but I was 16-21 years old. I think that is where the $297 expense is coming from, but I don't know for sure. The IRS is only taking into consideration fuel and insurance...car payments are not being factored. When clc and I were talking earlier she said $297 wouldn't get you a nice car. I disagreed, because a $297 payment can get you a nice car if you're willing to overlook a big, bulky, gas guzzling auto. A $297 a month car payment will also get you a very nice used car. I don't how the IRS came up with their exemptions and there pricing...I am not even going to guess. Dani
