That is just so wrong. Let's see...I kow the credit bureaus are owned by the credit card companies...so the credit bureaus sell collection accounts to creditors so they can collect on behalf of credit card companies...they can track all your info - releasing info behind your back such as when you apply for a mortgage. The first thing I HAD to sign when applying for the mortgage was an acknowledgement that they would share my information to third parties, as stated in the credit authorization form I HAD to sign for them to pull my credit... So sneaky. So your credit report, social security number, all your info is shared with 3rd parties and sold to collection agencies and so forth. No wonder there's so much identity theft and fraud in this country. I mailed off the letters to Experian and the collection agency with a copy of the dentist's letter. It feels SO good, like a load has been lifted off of me. I am scheduled to sign for my loan tomorrow. Everything is right on target...I looked up the tracking on the letter I had mailed to the dentist and it had arrived to their office shortly before they had faxed the letter to me lol see...i can laugh now... Justice feels good.. and by the way when writing my letters I had yoru posts up so was using some of ur terms as far as such and such may be an FDCA violation and so on I do wonder how my name got in the mix, and it is a shame if there is another party who does owe that dentist that amount. I hate people getting by smooching, and I am hoping it was all a mix up cuz i can't imagine unless it was an error someone using my name.
Whether the CC companies own the CRAs or not is irrelevant. The CRAs are in the business of selling the information they collect, whether accurate or not, and the more they sell, the more they make. They have been busy pushing the limits of what can be sold, and to whom, beyond the supposedly clear definitions in the FCRA and FACTA for years. Although the FTC's position is that anything submitted to the CRAs and reported to users of credit reports is part of a consumer's file, and should be subject to disclosure to users based on permissible purpose, consumer disclosure, and procedures to maintain accuracy, the CRAs seem to be taking the position that all the metadata, such as detailed information on which creditor reports what address or identifying information when, what inquiries are made of what type, what header information and other metadata is disclosed to who, etc, are not part of the consumer's credit file, and therefore are 1) not required to be disclosed to the consumer, and 2) free for them to sell for any reason, without labelling it as an inquiry. In a world of identity theft, or even more intense credit reporting with more people of similar names, more mobility, etc, the clunky existing correction mechanism fails to keep up with the increased information load, with its increased error rates. The CRA solution is to keep the consumer in the dark, just as they did when they first set these systems up. Consumers can't complain about things they can't find out about. The lenders pull your reports for legitimate reasons: you are in fact taking out a loan, and if they know you are reliable and pay your bills, you can at least get the benefit of the best rates. The problem is that anyone who certifies to the CRAs that they have "permissible purpose" to pull reports gets to do it, whether they actually do or not. Similarly, negative tradelines posted by the most reputable bank, or the most sleazy JDB, count the same. There is no quality control employed by the CRAs other than the consumer eventually catching an error and trying to get it corrected. Even the cummulative weight of erroneous reporting will not result in CRAs cutting off paying, reporting, customers, unlike the CC industry, where if your chargeback rate is to high, your merchant account is shut down. Even those CAs employing tactics egregious enough to result in FTC sanctions still had access to the credit reporting system when they were sanctioned, fined, or shut down. Most consumers haven't a clue, and there is no effective penalty for errors, either by the CRAs, or the legal system, sufficient to deter deliberate cheating. The statutory penalties built into FCRA and FDCPA have atrophied under more than a decade of inflationary errosion, even as the "business" of collection of old, out of statute, and possibly erroneous debt, has grown with increased availability of databases for tracking consumers.
The real joke is the assertion that having your SSN is somehow some proof you are responsible for some debt, as if it was some sort of digital signature. That's what the CA was trying on you. Was it id theft, was it simple misidentification? They had no interest in those possibilities at all, since they had no interest in whether they had the right person or not. Where did they get your SSN? If not from the dentist, then by what right do they even have it at all? Similarly, if the dentist never had you as a customer, by what right did the CA pull your credit reports to use to threaten you? You have just taken out a loan. How many people, and companies, have your full personal identification? How many had it before? The same information you use to open accounts, or take out a loan, is sitting in the files of thousands of people, and you have no control over how they will use it, or who they will pass it to. Any one of them could use it to open some Internet account, have stuff shipped to a vacant house, and leave no locatable trace. The weakness of the system is in the dependence on the unverifiable honesty of thousands of annonymous people, with equally transparent access available to the wary consumer. At least on a mortgage, you will probably identify yourself both with your signature, drivers license, and fingerprint. Probably one of the few types of accounts where you could actually prove identity theft or misidentification if it occurred. (Dental bills, as you know, are another.)
You may still have a bit of a fight with both the CA and with the CRA. Make sure you have checked ALL your CRs with all the CRAs. Sometimes when you dispute with one CRA you find the erroneous entry on, the CA just puts it on the others. Just because they stop bugging you does not mean the matter is resolved. You want to force them to finally determine the debt is not yours, even if that takes a court to decide it. You have momentum now, you are not pinned by an impending loan closing, and you have the dentist's cooperation. There is no guarantee all these factors will be in your favor at a later time. Remember to "follow-thru".
Here's an update in case you'd like to know how things are going. I signed my loan papers last week, thinking everything was fine, but surprise - now that I am waiting for the loan to fund (should've funded by Friday) I find out it's being held up because I have to deposit more funds in escrow. Why? Because the letter from the dentist is not sufficient, it must officially be removed from the credit report for the lender to honor it not to be paid, even though I could swear with 100% certainty in the beginning I was told a letter would be sufficient and they would make a follow up call if necessary for confirmation. SO..now i'm paying a dentist who in writing says i was never their patient. Secondly, another "surprise" item has popped up - a medical bill for $1601!!! I got the info and called the agency who this last minute has added an account for $1601. I found out from the date, 6/30/02 that it was for a doctor's visit. I quickly located the bill from my files, and it said $296 and I remember I had paid for it at the time. I told the collector I could request a canceled check from my bank as evidence. He said it must be for another doctor's bill from that same date (that would not make sense, i had a very brief 5 minute exchange with the doctor, but because it was a private hospital they charged almost $300, what Kaiser charges $25 for. I told them that when I bought my current house in 2004 it wasn't on my report, that I could provide a canceled check and a copy of the original invoice I have. I also told them that I had never heard of them, ever seen them on my credit report and that it was completely wrong. I gave him my address which he didn't have, he even askd me for my DOB which I wish I hadn't given to him. I didn't care because I was sure I could prove he was wrong about this. I hung up and called the hospital - Century City Hospital. I gave them the account number, they had no record of it, then I gave my social, they had no info of me. When I said it was from 2002, they said that last year the hospital was sold and purchased by a new owner, the new name of the hospital is New Century Doctor's Hospital and all the old files, they don't know what happened to them!!!! Did I mention that while on the phone with the agency, he upped the amount from 1600 to 2300 and I started to cry hysterically? The lender said there's nothing they can do to avoid having me pay it...my eyes are swollen from crying. This is just so unfair...I have to pay the 1700 for the dentist and now this 2300 to the hospital that doesn't exist, for a total of over 4000...too late to back out of anything, I fed ex-ed to escrow an additional 60,000 as part of my downpayment I still owed, they have all my money tied up and I have already signed the loan papers that have no recisision since it's a purchase...this is so wrong
Did you send a written dispute to the first CA, for the dental bill? Since you can probably be sure you didn't see this dentist, you might have the highest chance of proving billing error, or maybe fraud, in this case. Medical bills generally say what doctor provided the medical service, regardless of what legal entity is billing for them. It may be a bill from some ER physicians corporation, but it will still have the name of the actual doctor providing the services, along with the date of service and the medical billing codes. Did the second CA indicate what doctor's services this was a bill for? It sounds like they got a clue that they had you over a barrel. What explanation did the CA have for the increase in charges to $2300? Why did these "bills" not show up right after the services were provided? Were you reachable at your current address from the time of service to the present? What inquiries are showing on your credit reports from these CAs, and when did they first show up? Have you talked to your attorney about how to handle these payments assuming you might later want to pursue the collectors if the amounts are found to be wrong? Can you make payments by check perhaps marked under duress, or can you have the amounts held in escrow pending the CAs' providing sufficient validation? What state are these CAs located in? Who are you dealing with?
This is interesting, although it is about the new group that bought the hospital from Tenet: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7051407 The new hospital appears to be under totally different management and ownership from the old one. What would have happened to the old records, and to what degree can you trust any claim tied to the old hospital in the absence of access to the old records? Were the old accounts receivable just sold en-mass?
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! To elaborate, you would probably want to check with an attorney to determine your options. A lender may, or may not, be giving you an accurate picture of whether you can get out of this loan and shop elsewhere. FWIW I am an originator and can work in CA (from bits and pieces I gather that's where you are?) and I do have products which (a) close fairly quickly and (b) don't force you to pay off silly stuff like this. If you need any info, please feel free to click my name and send me an e-mail.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! To Phoenix - I have been trying to fight to not lose this loan, so I don't want these creditors to force me out of a great deal. If you can provide me with a 75% loan to value ratio loan, loan amount $735,000 at 5.875%30 year fixed, zero points, stated income and for a condo - and you're saying I wouldn't have to pay off these sharks, then I'll talk to you about it. As far as my lawyer, he is a family attorney we've all used for a long time, so I didn't want to go "behind his back" to another attorney. I had mentioned earlir that I didn't want him to talk to the dental office because he is soft spoken. Well, he is telling me to just pay everyone off and get it over with so it doesn't come to haunt me again. I called my sister and she said the same thing, so is my mom. That's why i had what I think was a nervous breakdown, crying hysterically, like nobody cares. they think I'm being a penny pincher, my sister even wrote that in a follow-up email after we hung up because she thought I was crazy to be crying over this. Just because my have "some money" doesn't mean I don't care about wasting it, paying it to people who I do not owe it to. I bet if I was poor on welfare, people would be lining up to help me out. I don't have a husband or anyone else to rely on financially so it is stressful to know I have to pay all my bills, even if I give the appearance that I might have a little bit more left over at the end of the day as some might think... Anyways, I have the actual bill from 6/30/02 and it does have the doctor's name, which I told the collection co. The guy was surprised I still had it, I located it while we were on the phone, I'm very organized. I said I could send him a copy along with a canceled check and I thought he would say greeat, pleae do that or something, but just like with the lady at the collection co. for the dentist, he pretty much ignored it, moving on like as you said ontrack, he had a script or something. I told him I had paid the amount on the invoice and had never received anything else. The name of their co. is Central Financial Control, they are located in California. The dentist oen is American Agencies, also in Calif. It has just recently been placed, I just found out about it, and the mortg. co. pulled a tri-merged report, like the dental one, only Experian is reporting it. Again, if I did owe a sum a long time ago, if I were to have received a bill, I swear to you I would've taken care of it. I'm the type that always makes extra payments for everything and makes sure nothing is late, let alone in collections. That's why I feel like I'm being taken advantage of and even my friends and family are telling me to just pay and get it over with. The mortg. co. pulled my credit again today, they said they do it before funding to make sure ur credit is still ok, which makes sense. I mean what if in the meantime someone filed BK or had some lates etc. posted... So as of today before calling this colllector, looking on the report the balance was 1690 (not 1601 as I wrote earlier) and i asked him, what is the original balance by the hospital, he wouldn't tell me, he said in a smirky way that it WAS 1690 but now it is 2300!!! On top of this, I am paying interest for every day my loan has not funded because the sellers have already moved out, which is going to end up costing just as much as these items. I really don't think the lender is trying to do anything against me, they're just following their procedures. I say that because on the bright side, they are going to eat up part of the fee for getting the extension on my rate lock which I have had to end up doing because it has taken longer than anticipated. Also, I looked on the link at that article, and that is the same hospital my bill is coming from. Remember my bill is from 2002 and that article says that that's the year the doctors decided to buy the hospital themselves because the billing department was chaotic...they probably cleaned the slate and started from scratch or something...I called them and I was like saying I'm calling about an account I being charged for, first they looked me up then when I said it was from 2002 they were like sorry we can't help you, we don't have any files from that date and when I said who does, he laughed and said he doesn't know!!! that it had since been purchased by a new owner (as in 500 doctors). This was the New Century Doctor's Hospital, previously New Century Hospital. In fact, I had sent the doctor a huge gift basket as a thankyou for seeing me - I can be overly generous with stuff like that for almost no reason. I have the receipt for that too...i can go on forever, it helps writing it out because nobody I talk to will hear me out and it is turning me into a wreck. The escrow co. already has enough money in it to pay these people, so tomorrow I will basically have 4,000 less money to my name because it went to scheming entities...If I had some TIME I could resolve these things. I have the paper evidence. The lender only goes by what is stated on the credit report, unlike subprime lenders who can overlook things, but in return you get a steep rate, with a prepay penalty and so forth. I guess it's hard not to get screwed in some compacity these days, there are people out there to pull the rug from under you...anyways, sorry for rambling on.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! There appears to be a story behind the Tenet sale of this, and other, hospitals: http://www.all-about-qui-tam.org/cgi-local/quitam/articles.pl?s=press&a=Tenet_Jun_18_02 http://www.legalnewswatch.com/news_181.html http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/07/09/rtr1021336.html http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2005-03-02-tenet-usat_x.htm And with regard to inflated billing for uninsured patients during the timeframe you are talking about: http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/news_print.asp?id=7746 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/12/05/BU160374.DTL Then there is this settlement to a class action lawsuit against Tenet, over inflated charges to uninsured patients: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1123684514148 "Class Action Settlement OK'd Between Tenet, Uninsured Patients Alex Veiga The Associated Press 08-11-2005 A judge has approved an agreement by Tenet Healthcare Corp. to settle a class action lawsuit accusing its hospitals of overcharging uninsured and underinsured patients, a lawyer said Tuesday. The settlement covers plaintiffs in California and eight other states -- Texas, South Carolina, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Florida, Alabama and Louisiana. Those who received treatment at Tenet-run hospitals between June 15, 1999, and Dec. 31, 2004, will be eligible for restitution, said attorney Steve Berman, who represented the plaintiffs. ... " Here is the website for the class action settlement: http://www.tenetclassaction.com/faq.php3 By the way, the above site lists your hospital, Century City Hospital, as included in this settlement, and the settlement period includes the period during which your services were provided. It is quite possible that you are a part of this class. Perhaps that explains why the CA ambushed you, instead of just dunning you when they originally got the account, which would have allowed you sufficient time to validate the debt. It may be that this debt is affected by the settlement. You might want to contact the attorneys at the above site.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! As a practical matter, your family attorney is right: you have to mitigate your damages anyway you can, and if you have no time to dispute, you may be stuck. Litigation is slow, and the costs of this delay may exceed paying even bills you don't owe. The less entangled you are in legal proceedings, the better off you are. Pay, and move in. That might not be the end of it, however. You might want to obtain a second opinion, from an attorney that handles specifically FDCPA and collection law. There are a number of them in the LA area, and some of them can be found thru the naca.net site: http://www.naca.net/ Note that I have NO first hand knowledge of any of them. I only saw that several of them on that site claim to be experienced in that area. If their area of expertise is collection law, they are likely to have dealt with similar cases, similar CAs, and similar tactics. Sometimes, FDCPA violations are used by debtors as negotiation leverage to offset otherwise legitimate debts being collected by CAs using abusive tactics. So far, you don't appear to have anything in writing to support the claims that these debts are legitimate, and your own records or knowledge indicates otherwise. There is a common thread to both these debts: 1) They are both questionable, and there is a high probability they are erroneous: a) On the dentist's bill, you know you never used that dentist, and have a letter from them that you are not in their files. b) On the Century City Hospital bill, you have a paid doctor's bill, an alleged charge way out of line with services actually provided, similar claims by others, settlements for allegations of fraudulent Medicare billing with Federal and a number of state governments, and maybe a class action settlement involving uninsured, and underinsured patients, apparently binding on the then hospital owner, Tenet. 2) They both only showed up at the last minute, apparently triggered by your mortgage credit report inquiry. 3) Neither CA has provided anything to substantiate the debts in writing. In fact, have they even sent you a dunning letter? Have they sent your lender anything in writing, or did they just make their claim in a phone call? If they were legitimate, why wouldn't they have sent a dunning letter when it first went to collections? And even if they didn't send a dunning letter, or sent one to some other address, why didn't the accounts show on your credit report when you first pulled it? If I was a journalist, I would smell a story. If I was an FDCPA attorney, I would smell money.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! I just searched on the naca.net site, for attorneys claiming to have experience or advanced knowledge in FDCPA. Here are a couple in Southern California: http://www.stopcollectionharassment.com/attorney_profile.htm http://www.truebloodlawfirm.com/consumer_protection/bio.html No doubt there are many others.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! Did either of the CAs, when contacted by your lender, or the trimerge report company, indicate that the debt was in dispute? Under FDCPA, if they knew it was disputed, whether in writing, or not, they were required to notify anyone they disclosed the debt to that it was in dispute. When you told the first CA you had confirmed with the dentist that they had no record of you, you disputed the debt. When you told the other CA you had a copy of the bill showing it had been paid, you disputed the debt.
Re: Re: What are my rights? Please help! American Agencies. This is looking downright Kafkaesque: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff173393.htm http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff164080.htm http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff162498.htm and many more. There were reports their license was revoked by the CA AG: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff87004.htm Their BBB rating is "F", failing to respond to a lot of complaints.
