--> What Is Estoppel!

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by Butch, Sep 20, 2003.

  1. sassyinaz

    sassyinaz Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    ok, so I can't let this go, and feel strongly about misinformation presented as factual without any supporting and verifiable sources.

    Opinion's have their place, but call it what it is.

    A poster in another thread decided I must be a Bill Bauer "apostle" because he too didn't like me pointing out factual inaccuracies and providing the accurate sources for his misinformation.

    I've never posted in the same thread with Bill Bauer nor have been actively posting on this board or any other board during Bill's periods of membership.

    Whatever, that's my disclaimer, I'm no one's apostle and don't follow the beat of any drummer.

    The misinformation must be addressed or at least presented so that others can make an intelligent decision, Bill has addressed this topic and since I believe he's banned from posting, I'll not reinvent the wheel and just link to where it is addressed:

    http://www.creditwrench.greatnow.com/Creditnet~Estoppel~Discussion.html

    I hope those reading along and with an interest in this topic, can set aside their egos in presentation and objectively analyze and consider the topic -- that's the WHOLE point.

    If believing one should consider ALL the arguments and information and factual supporting sources in order to make an intelligent decision and BEFORE deciding to cut and paste a letter posted in this thread and send it makes me an apostle, well then, I guess it MUST be true.

    I ONLY endorse doing one's homework, we alone are responsible for the decisions we make and the consequences, intended and unintended.

    Sassy
     
  2. connorw

    connorw Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Sassy,

    I read the whole thread. I think that Bill made some valid points in his posts. My biggest problem with Bill's posts in the thread was a tendency to ramble on without actually giving much in the way of support for his rambling. It was not easy to figure out what he was saying, but that appears to be his writing style.

    I have my own opinion of Bill, but that's another matter.

    I regard anything, even from my attorney as "opinion". There seemed to be a pretty good debate going between Bill and Butch, with some point and counter point. The link to his site provided more in the way of substance via his comments than what I saw in his posts here.

    I agree that we the readers really must look at all the opinions and "evidence", research that evidence and come to our own conclusion before deciding to take one piece of advice over another.

    Assuming that one likes person A and does not like person B, one has to be able to see the points made by person B and judge their arguement on the merits of the arguement, including supporting "evidence". "Evidence" can be taken out of contect, selectively edited or in some other way misrepresented by accident or on purpose. The key is to look at the evidence, find the source, read it and draw your own conclusions. If need be you consult with other people to see if they agree or can poke holes in your logic.
     
  3. sassyinaz

    sassyinaz Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Nodding connorw,

    Thanks, I'm flying with ya!!!!!!!!!!

    Sassy
     
  4. connorw

    connorw Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    NP. Sassy.

    In reading the repsonpses Bill put in that link you provided I found a few flaws with his arguement, but not with the estoppel as I simply don't know enough.

    He talked about the request for licensing and how not all states require you be licensed as a collection agency. That's perfectly true, Colorado does require you to have a CA license. Now if you're in a state that doesn't have a CA license that's fine. HOWEVER, I can't think of ANY state that doesn't require you have a BUSINESS license. So his arguement is at best 50-50.

    Now with all the debate pro and con on estoppel, if I get to that point I have the option of leaving out any mention of estoppel and simply say something like:

    I have not heard back from you in a reasonable time, XX days, in my previous two requests's for validation, as noted above, You have not provided the proof of debt, validation in (FCRA or FDCPA) parlance. You have no had the courtesy of providing me with any correspondence whatsoever, no acknowledgment that you have received my requests for proof of debt, no acknowledgment that you are assembling the proof in order to provide it to me, nothing at all.

    I am forced to assume, from your silence on this issue, that you are unable to validate the debt and therefore have no proof that this debt is mine.

    You are hereby instructed to cease collection efforts until such time as you are able to provide the proof of debt that I have, on two occasions, requested from you. You are also instructed to remove any remarks made to any credit reporting agency. You have 10 days from receipt of this letter to provide copies of all documents used to contact the credit reporting agencies as instructed. ...

    It's kind of a compromise between the two points of view. It mentions silence as the reason that you, the consumer, are forced to assume that they have no proof. Now if you go to court with an attorney, and an estoppel by silence can be argued, or you just want to try it yourself, you have the option of saying: "Your Honor, in preparation for the trial I came accross the "Doctrine of estoppel", if I understand that doctrine correctly, their lack of correspondance, their silence is tantamount to "estoppel by silence", therefore I don't think they should be able to provide evidence at this point that contradicts their previous actions and silence. Am I correct in my understanding of estoppel?"

    It's also the dumb consumer approach, make them think you know nothing then nail them to the wall for the violations they've racked up.
     
  5. Phreedom

    Phreedom Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    This is kind of off topic but I just can't help myself...

    I'm a network engineer and also a fluent *nix administrator. What I'm not is a professional web developer even though I do know a lot about development since I work with developers all day. That being said...

    When I'm visiting a web site and considering purchasing products or services from the site, one of the FIRST things I notice is the professionalism of the site. If it's amateur in look or construction, I move on. I mentioned how shabby creditwrench is in a earlier thread.

    Now I attempt to revisit creditwrench based on the link provided in this thread. Low and behold, the moron has embedded 3MB AUDIO FILE IN THE HTML PAGE!! Does he really think users on 56k modems are going to wait 4 or 5 minutes for the page to load?

    Not only does this guy have a whole lot of shitty things to say about creditnet but he goes WAAAAAAY out of his way to criticize it. So far out of the way in fact, that his criticisms are severely dimished by one simple fact: He's trying to sell what creditnet gives away.

    I'm sure he's got good ideas but overall he makes such an ass of himself that he isn't worth listening to.

    <steps down from bitch box>
     
  6. connorw

    connorw Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!


    At least you didn't say Nohell ;-) I'm probably not as fluent as you in *nix, and maybe not Wintel either, but 12 years supporting anything PC related gives you a pretty good base... general vs specific. I just make it work. My forte is making hardware sit up and do tricks.

    I got so sick of the crappy music people use that I turn off my speakers unless I'm playing music or movies on da PC. Oh for the days of HTML Beta v0.9... no music, no dumb graphics :) I did notice that he could have made his comments stand out a bit more.

    What get's me is that he is one thing here, all nice and praising, then on the credit inustry board he's slamming the very same people that he said he praised here.

    I tend to judge people by their actions, I can still listen to what they have to say even if I can't stand the site of them. I've got someone at work like that, I deal with him on a professional, as needed basis.
     
  7. Phreedom

    Phreedom Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Very true. The workplace is a different animal and how you conduct yourself and deal with others is completely different than what you may do outside of the workplace.

    In the cause of Bauer (spelling?), that idiotic audio rant embedded on that page makes him look foolish and desperate. I get the distinct impression he'll say anything against creditnet or creditboards even if it isn't true just to get a few extra bucks.

    Given the reasonable amount of information on his site and some of the comments I've read about him, he probably has some great ideas and valuable contributions to the cause. His character assassinations and grandstanding, immature name calling like "Looney Tunes university" (or whatever the hell he calls creditnet) makes it very difficult for me to believe he's anything other than desperate for business.
     
  8. lbrown59

    lbrown59 Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    YES!
     
  9. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Bumping for Banko.
     
  10. dstdiva

    dstdiva Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    this is very interesting. i sent a val. letter to a CA (NAM) and they have not responded (more than 30 days). the account is not listed on any of my credit reports, but i started paying them before i got to this board. i didn't know what the original amount was, if fees had been added...there was no agreement not to put the stuff on my accounts. okay, so should i send the estoppel now? or leave it where it stands? i don't want to sue them or them to sue me.
     
  11. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    .
     
  12. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    [let's try this again]


    Need some additional info. Diva.

    Ya know, amt. your state, the typical stuff.

    If they have not yet dinged your credit report, it doesn't mean they won't, although it may be treated as a violation if they do.

    If the amount is not too large, perhaps making an agreement to conclude the case with a note that they will NOT report would be in your best interest.

    I'm telling you this for a cpl reasons. Estoppel really is tricky business, and should be used carefully. If a case ever goes to any court lower than County, (ie. small claims) I don't know if it'll carry any weight. Given what I now know about these small claims "quasi-judges", they may not know what it is. LOL

    Especially since you said you're not interested in a legal battle, which I don't blame ya for, it may be prudent to work this out.

    But I would not let making a payment on something prevent me from demanding validation, even tho they may tell you you lost that right.


    • Jodie Bernstein:

      http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/09/uca.htm


      FOR RELEASE: SEPTEMBER 11, 1996


      MAJOR DEBT COLLECTION AGENCY AGREES TO PAY $146,000 CIVIL PENALTY TO SETTLE FTC CHARGES THAT IT VIOLATED FAIR DEBT COLLECTION PRACTICES ACT


      In the past few years, the FTC has taken action against approximately 20 individuals and companies for alleged debt collection practices abuse. "Among the Commission's concerns in these types of cases," said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection, "is that some consumers may not actually owe the debts, but may pay them in order to stop the abuse."


    Instead of arguing the existence of the debts legitimacy you may switch to arguing the amount, to the penny. This too is difficult for them to validate.

    Your position might sound something like:

    • Regardless of the fact that I may have inadvertently sent money on this alleged account, there now arises a question as to the legitimacy of the debt and/or the amount you claim.


    So your tactic is the same (bein a pian in the butt) but your argument changes.

    See what I mean?

    :)
     
  13. dstdiva

    dstdiva Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    hey butch! is it possible that i can email you? i ask because the last time i posted about this issue, i recieved an email from NAM. they have never had my email address and i believe that they were "fishing" to see if my email was dstdiva@whatever. however, i can tell you that i kinda did what you described in my validation letter.
     
  14. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!


    ANYONE can email me ANYTIME.

    No invitation needed. :)

    Just put from CN in the subject line. I get 300 - 500 emails a day.

    LOL
     
  15. dstdiva

    dstdiva Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    butch,

    i just sent the email entitled, "CN-Estoppel".
     
  16. dstdiva

    dstdiva Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    butch,

    did you respond to me? several people told me that their messages to me bounced back over the weekend. did that happen to you?
     
  17. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Last week was the week from hell. I had to sit for a huge exam for my business. I missed it the first time so the preasure was on.

    Then, after Thur. I got sick. PPFFF. If it ain't one thing.

    (I nailed the the test this time.)

    I'll go check to see if I overlooked you.

    :)

    Edit: I'm so sorry Diva, I see it.

    I'll send right away.

    :)
     
  18. sassyinaz

    sassyinaz Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Butch,

    Did you get an A+ with gold stars and red-penned smiley faces???????

    Sassy
     
  19. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Just a B+.

    Thanks for askin Sassy.

    :)
     
  20. connorw

    connorw Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: --> What Is Estoppel!

    Congrats, Butch!

    I was always a straight C student. Do you know how hard it is to maintain that average when you have a 97.5 in one class? Man, it took some work... and telling the teacher NOT to correct his addition mistake cause you'd have to listen to the brainey kid whine for the next 3 years casue you kicked his butt in one class one year.

    connorw's most common comment on report cards:

    "connorw continuously demonstrate's his ability to understand the subject matter, excels in class discussions. connorw is not working to his potential on tests, if he applied his potential his grades would be much higher."

    I liked my classes, like the debate and the learning part, but hated tests. Except for BIO... all I did was tests and passed, much to the dismay of my teacher. Aced the tests, couldn't use microscopes, never could figure out why, still can't. HAHAHA
     

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