You would think that explicitly stating that in accordance with the Wollman Opinion, a print-out of their computer screen will not be accepted as validation, would actually be comprehendable. Luckily, the print-out did have just enough information to shoot out a "that was not validation, since you apparently don't want to take my word for it, here is a copy of the Wollman Opinion, and sorry Charlie, this account is time-barred, so don't even bother trying to validate, because you're C&D'ed letter"... Another two humorous CA responses. Both to validation requests sent within the 30 days of their initial contact. "We don't have any account under your name. Perhaps you sent this letter to us by mistake. We've enclosed the letter, and envelope." -- this one threatened to start reporting the account in 35 days if the account wasn't paid by the end of the 35 days, so please, do a favor and report it, especially after you put into writing that you can't find any account. and "We don't have any account under your name, please send us the name of the original creditor, account number." The best part is all three are *MAJOR* CA's...
lol, imagine that.. if you send the DV out after the 30 days, does the estoppel still apply I wonder? I have a couple of CA's that I sent DV's to, they're reporting them as disputed and validated them but they never sent ME any form of validation what so ever.. it's about time to send my 2nd letter.. anyone know if the estoppel by silence still applies? (although they "verified" with the CRA - there are about 3 days left for one, and the other was up yesterday)
1*if you send the DV out after the 30 days, does the estoppel still apply I wonder? 2*I have a couple of CA's that I sent DV's to, they're reporting them as disputed and validated them 3*they never sent ME any form of validation what so ever.. 4* it's about time to send my 2nd letter.. anyone know if the estoppel by silence still applies? (although they "verified" with the CRA - 5*there are about 3 days left for one, and the other was up yesterday) NyteAngel ------------------- 1*Certainly 2*If they never sent you validation they did not validated then. 3*Then they never validated. 4*YEP 5*Then send the estoppel letters. ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it.
great post BTW in reference to estoppel some newbies may not know what this is or how to go about it do you have a link or sample letter to add to this thread?
Re: Re: Ya gotta LOVE CA's... *As a matter of fact I do! here is a coppy of both the validation and estoppel letters. Validation & Estoppel letters 7-10-3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here is the Validation Letter you want to send by CRRR. Don't make any changes on it and don't hand sign it. Your Name Address City State Zip Company Address City State Zip Date RE: Account #_________/Original Creditorâ??s Name Dear Sir/Madame: Thank you for your recent inquiry. This is not a refusal to pay, but a notice that your claim is being disputed. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Please complete and return the attached disclosure request form. Be advised that I am not requesting a "verification" that you have my mailing address, I am requesting a "validation;" that is, competent evidence that I have some contractual obligation to pay you. You should also be aware that sending unsubstantiated demands for payment through the United States Mail System might constitute mail fraud under federal and state law. You may wish to consult with a competent legal advisor before your next communication with me. Your failure to satisfy this request within the requirements of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act will be construed as your absolute waiver of any and all claims against me, and your tacit agreement to compensate me for costs and attorney fees. Sincerely, Your Name don't sign - - - Include the following on a separate sheet of paper - - - CREDITOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT Name and Address of Collector (assignee): _________________________ Name and Address of Debtor: ____________________________________ Account Number(s): ____________________________________________ What are the terms of assignment for this account? You may attach a facsimile of any records relating to such terms. Have any insurance claims been made by any creditor or assignee regarding this account? YES/NO Has the purported balanced of this account been used in any tax deduction claim? YES/NO Please list the particular products or services sold by the collector to the debtor and the dollar amount of each: Upon failure or refusal of collector to validate this collection action, collector agrees to waive all claims against the debtor named herein and pay debtor for all costs and attorney fees involved in defending this collection action. ________________________________ Authorized signature for Collector Date_______/_______/_______ Please return this completed form and attach all assignment or other transfer agreements that would establish your right to collect this debt. Your claim cannot be considered if any portion of this form is not completed and returned with the required documents. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. If you do not respond as required by this law, your claim will not be considered and you may be liable for damages for continued collection efforts. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Send this letter next if you don't get validation in 30 days. Estoppel Letter DON'T CHANGE Send CRRR Your Name Address «City», «State» «Zip» Company» Address «City», «State» «Zip» «Date» RE: Dispute Letter of <insert date> Dear Sir/Madame: As I have not heard back from you in over 30 days regarding my notice of dispute dated <insert date>, and you have not supplied the demanded proof of the alleged debt, under the doctrine of estoppel by silence, Engelhardt v Gravens (Mo) 281 SW 715, 719, I may presume that no proof of the alleged debt, nor therefore any such debt, in fact exists. In a good faith effort to resolve this matter amicably, I restate my demand for proof of the debt, specifically the alleged contract or other instrument bearing my signature, as well as proof of your authority in this matter. Absent such proof, you must terminate this collection action and correct any erroneous reports of this debt as mine. For the record, I state again that as I have no account with you, nor am I your customer, nor have I entered into a contract with you, I must ask for the following information: Please evidence your authorization under 15 USC 1692 (e) and 15 USC 1692 (f) in this alleged matter. What is your authorization of law for your collection of information? What is your authorization of law for your collection of this alleged debt? Please evidence your authorization to do business or operate in the state of ____________________ . Please evidence proof of the alleged debt, including specifically the alleged contract or other instrument bearing my signature. You have fifteen (15) days from receipt of this notice to respond. Your failure to respond, on point, in writing, hand signed, and in a timely manner, will work as a waiver to any and all of your claims in this matter, and will entitle me to presume that you sent your letter(s) in error, and that this matter is permanently closed. Your continued silence is unacceptable. Either provide the proof or correct the record to remove the invalid debt from my credit files with the three primary credit-reporting agencies. You are currently in violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act and the Fair Debt Collection Act. Failure to respond within 15 days of receipt of this registered letter will result in a small claims action against your company. I will be seeking $____________ in damages for the following: Defamation Negligent Enablement of Identity Fraud Violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act After obtaining the judgment against your company, I will obtain a Writ of Execution from the Sheriffâ??s office in your county and I will begin the process of attaching property or funds to satisfy the judgment. For the purposes of 15 USC 1692 et seq., this Notice has the same effect as a dispute to the validity of the alleged debt and a dispute to the validity of your claims. This Notice is an attempt to correct your records, and any information received from you will be collected as evidence should any further action be necessary. This is a request for information only, and is not a statement, election, or waiver of status. I affirm under penalty of perjury under the Laws of the Land for the United States of America, that the foregoing is true and correct, to the best of my knowledge and belief. Sincerely, Your Name DON'T SIGN ===================================
Ignore it and stick to the validation process. If you don't they will run you ragged running around putting out their little brush fires such as they are trying to do here. Buy sticking to the process you keep them dancing to the right waltz instead of starting brush fires ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> ><- <>- ><- <> ~~~ ><- <>- ><- <> Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it. .
I wouldn't use those letters. There is way too much "legalese" in them. And some of those items you ask for aren't valid. Why not just a simple letter, followed by a second one saying that since (either they haven't answered or sent insufficient evidence) you are again requesting substantive evidence that it's your account and the amount is correct. You want a full accounting of all charges and credits. I know a lot of people have used the letters lbrown posted, but there has also been a lot of discussion about not using them. I'd hate to have to go to court and tell the judge why I thought I needed all this information from them. An example is if if there's been a tax writeoff. Immaterial. If they later collect on a debt that's written off, they just bring the amount back as income and pay taxes on it. The terms of agreements with their clients may also be confidential. If a judge wants to order them to produce these documents, he'll issue and order and they'll have to reply. There's no reason for them to give it to you. I also don't believe in listing what you think their violations are. Save that one for court, too. You need to appear to be the least informed consumer going into this.
hedwig, could you post a sample that the newbies on here could follow in place of lbrowns letter if you don't think it's appropriate to use.
----------------------------------- ""We don't have any account under your name, please send us the name of the original creditor, account number." ------------------------------------ NCO asked me to validate an alleged debt as well.
CAW: I even paraphrased them hoping that no one would post the CA's involved... Well, one is unmasked...
Well, my letters are all personalized... But are probably way too legalistic anyhow... But I personally don't use any letter unless I know how, and why it works like it is supposed to work, well enough that I would be able to explain it to a judge. I am fairly certain that my 'validation' letter is complete enough, without delving into what they may be able to classify as frivelous. Hedwig: The one thing that I could see about demanding the tax write-off is to see whether or not they did write-off, and write back on PROPERLY. Especially with the one case that I am fighting, they wrote off the full amount, then put the balance back on (with no transactions to do this, it just *pops* back up), then they applied funds that they 'reclaimed' to the balance after they've charged off the full amount. I have no idea whether they legally claimed the 'reclaimed' funds as income or not, but I know that they've claimed the 'full charge-off'... I would so love to tip off the IRS to audit them, just to find out for certain...
i have a question about the wollman opinion - can hat be used in a defense agains a creditor such as a utility bill? since there is no contract with a utility bill they would not have your signature and what would be sufficient proof other than a printout?
So, sent the estoppel letters after the 30 days? AND if they still don't respond, then send letters to the CRA asking for deletion b/c they didn't validate?
Jenz: Wollman just states that the documentation must come from the original creditor, not what the documentation must contain. In this case, the 'documentation' that they provided was nothing *BUT* the print out of their screen, complete with notations "ASK FOR EMPLYMENT" and every other notation they could think of having, and it listed the day they supposedly received the account, etc. So it was fairly obvious that they not only have nothing, but they didn't even attempt to go to the alleged original creditor to ask for anything either.
So funny. I just got a "printout" yesterday. I guess, I will be off to Estoppel land anyway....Right?
