i received a letter in response to my dispute i filed with Experian over the phone. all it does is list the item that i disputed and describes is as "remains". THAT'S ALL!! now, i'm not the most tenured poster on CN, but from all the weeks i've put in reading the threads and learning, i know that doesn't come anywhere close to proper validation. i am responding with this letter: 13 MAR 04 Attn: Experian NCAC P.O. Box 9595 Allen, TX 75013 From: dilla This letter is in response to your correspondence regarding my dispute. The Experian Report Number is *******. The item from my credit report that is being disputed has an account number is ****** and is in the amount of $87. In your letter, you state the following: The federal Fair Credit Reporting Act states that you may: --request a description of how we verified the information, including the business name and address contacted and the telephone numberâ?¦; --add a statement disputing the accuracy or completeness of the information; and --request that we send these results to organizations who have reviewed your report in the past two years for employment purposes or six months for any other purposeâ?¦ I am hereby requesting a description of how my dispute was verified, including the business name, address, phone number and any other contact information pertaining to my dispute. I am also hereby further disputing your â??verificationâ? of my dispute. The letter I received from you includes nothing that resembles a proper validation. It simply lists the item I disputed and states that the â??outcome remains.â? In addition, i am also requesting that my updated Experian Credit Report be included with your response. Sincerely, dilla do you guys think: 1. anything should be added/removed from this letter? 2. i should just send a validation letter to CA (who never contacted me, but i have their info now) my understanding is that i should go with option 2. but if i should send the letter to Experian now, is there anything that should be added/removed? thanks in advance! dilla
ok, just double-checked my thinking by RE-reading Butch's What is Validation again. sounds like that's all Experian has to provide initially. i will be sending that letter to Experian just requesting the info they have for CA and their investigative info. should i wait until i receive that info until i send validation letter to CA?? dilla
Hi Dilla, FCRA requires the CRA's to send you the "results" of their investigation. Arguably I suppose "REMAINS" constitutes "sending you the results". lol By all means your next step is demand procedures. In fact that's the next step 90 percent of the time. Now here's your issue. A LOT of people miss this. § 809. Validation of debts [15 USC 1692g] (a) Within five days after the initial communication with a consumer in connection with the collection of any debt, a debt collector shall, unless the following information is contained in the initial communication or the consumer has paid the debt, send the consumer a written notice containing -- A communication is defined as: (2) The term "communication" means the conveying of information regarding a debt directly or indirectly to any person through any medium. I'm quote confident that transmitting information to a CRA regarding your TL is covered by the definition of communication in FDCPA, and thus triggers the 5 day notice requirement. In fact, often it's the "initial communication". Also - I think the new FACT Act changes this, in that they must ALL notify us 30 days ahead of a neg. TL posting. .
That said, ... ... if the account IS yours I'd make sure the CA understands they have 2 choices; 1) I'll pay it in exchange for deletion, in writing. 2) Get sued Which would you prefer? [there are NO other choices - period] .
The most important thing that you need to learn. CA's have to validate... CRA's just have to verify with the data furnisher that the 1s and 0s which were submitted to them initially match up with what the data furnisher has on their system... At least before Johnson v. MBNA... Now we at least have precidence showing that just looking at a computer screen and comparing it to the other computer screen is not even verification. Before the Johnson v. MBNA ruling, and appealate court affirmation, that was the minimum common denominator...
Send the validation letter to the CA before you send the follow up letter to Experian. Chances are they will send you just the even more imflamitory "PREVIOUSLY VERIFIED" response, the less than frivelous determination that they are considering the dispute frivelous because they frivelously verified the account once. You will also want to emphasize to Experian that how could they have verified to them, if they have NEVER contacted you. If the letter is returned as undeliverable, you even have a better arguement, how could this company have verified it if the address which they are saying is the address that they verified it with the company at is undeliverable (It happens a lot more frequently then you would believe -- I've had Experian giving out the WRONG STATE for a data furnisher.) Then you would photocopy the envelope and include it with your dispute. You will want to wait until the CA signs for the validation letter to send the letter to Experian. In the off-chance that they actually decide to investigate it the second time.
BUTCH are you saying that i should automatically be receiving a validation from CA because i disputed it with EX?? (btw, the CA doesn't have my address. in fact, they never have because i've moved twice since i had an account with OC. will EX send them my current address??) OR are you saying that because the CA never contacted me, that they have already violated the FDCPA...now leaving them with 2 choices; 1) I'll pay it in exchange for deletion, in writing. 2) Get sued. i have a validation letter ready to send to CA and a procedures request letter ready to send to EX. <i'll post those for you guys to read-over after i make sure i'm headed in the right direction.> this brings up another idea i wanted to get confirmation on: ------if we mail the validation to CA, and then wait until we get the green card back before we mail a dispute to the CRA, does that put the 30 day deadline on the CA validation...giving them 30 days from the date they signed the green card to properly validate or delete from credit report? i've read Butch's What is Validation? thread at least 30 times now, and i just wanna make sure i understand what exactly he and the other CNetters who responded were trying to convey. dilla
Once the CA gets the dispute from EXP they have 30 days to respond. In order to respond, they must provide the validation to you. So, once they sign for the validation letter, and then get the dispute from the CRA, they are between a rock and a hard place. Now, EXP will in all likelyhood try to PI it; you will want to have something to argue that they couldn't have investigated previously. The simplest would be (if you're using Not Mine); How could XYZ Co have verified to your company that this account was my account, since XYZ Co has never contacted me? I am demanding that it is conclusively verified whose account this is, under the guidelines of Johnson v. MBNA. Now you're upping the burdon of proof (BUTCH may be able to re-work it a lot better as well) within the parameters of our now strongest stick to clobber them with.
Tried to add this in to the message, but missed the deadline by a minute or so... But the 30 days starts when they are contacted by the CRA. Now, if you are monitoring the status of the certified letter online, you may be able to get the dispute out earlier than if you wait for the green card to arrive.
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) I think EX will take the position in this case that the OP self-verified when they spoke on the phone
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) thanks for all the advice everyone!! the verification letter that EX sent me regarding my dispute was dated March 8th. i'm going to post the 2 letters i have typed up to send out: 1)validation to CA 2)procedures request to EX i'll work in the tips you guys have given me. if you think something should be added/removed, i would appreciate your help. thanks in advance! dilla
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) VALIDATION LETTER TO CA To: Professional Account Management From: dilla 15 MAR 04 RE: Account #******/*** Bank Dear Sir/Madame: I recently pulled my credit report and found the above collection listed. I have NEVER been contacted by your company regarding this debt. Nor was I ever contacted by *** Bank. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. Please complete and return the attached disclosure request form. Be advised that I am not requesting a "verification" that you have my mailing address, I am requesting a "validation;" that is, competent evidence that I have some contractual obligation to pay you. I am requesting that you notify all of credit bureaus that this account is â??disputedâ? or that you delete this account until this matter is resolved. This is required by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. You should also be aware that sending unsubstantiated demands for payment through the United States Mail System might constitute mail fraud under federal and state law. You may wish to consult with a competent legal advisor before your next communication with me. Your failure to satisfy this request within the requirements of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act will be construed as your absolute waiver of any and all claims against me, and your tacit agreement to compensate me for costs and attorney fees. Sincerely, dilla next page CREDITOR DISCLOSURE STATEMENT 1. Name and Address of Collector (assignee): _________________________ 2. Name and Address of Debtor: ____________________________________ 3. Account Number(s): ____________________________________________ 4. What are the terms of assignment for this account? You may attach a facsimile of any records relating to such terms. 5. Have any insurance claims been made by any creditor or assignee regarding this account? YES/NO 6. Has the purported balanced of this account been used in any tax deduction claim? YES/NO 7. Please list the particular products or services sold by the collector to the debtor and the dollar amount of each: Upon failure or refusal of collector to validate this collection action, collector agrees to waive all claims against the debtor named herein and pay debtor for all costs and attorney fees involved in defending this collection action. ________________________________ Authorized signature for Collector ___/___/_____ Date Please return this completed form and attach all assignment or other transfer agreements that would establish your right to collect this debt. Your claim cannot be considered if any portion of this form is not completed and returned with the required documents. This is a request for validation made pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. If you do not respond as required by this law, your claim will not be considered and you may be liable for damages for continued collection efforts. .
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) PROCEDURES REQUEST TO BE SEND TO EXPERIAN Attn: Experian From: dilla This letter is in response to your correspondence regarding my dispute. The Experian Report Number is ******. The item from my credit report that is being disputed has an account number is **** and is in the amount of $87. In your letter, you state the following: The federal Fair Credit Reporting Act states that you may: --request a description of how we verified the information, including the business name and address contacted and the telephone numberâ?¦; --add a statement disputing the accuracy or completeness of the information; and --request that we send these results to organizations who have reviewed your report in the past two years for employment purposes or six months for any other purposeâ?¦ I am hereby requesting a description of how my dispute was verified, including the business name, address, phone number and any other contact information pertaining to my dispute. I am also hereby further disputing your â??verificationâ? of my dispute. The letter I received from you includes nothing that demonstrates how you reached the conclusion that my dispute was unfounded. It simply lists the item I disputed and states that the â??outcome remains.â? In addition, I am also requesting that my updated Experian Credit Report be included with your response. Sincerely, dilla .
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) also, if you guys could confirm i have this timeline correct: send validation to CA wait until they sign green card and then... send procedures request to EX [/list=1] and does this produce the 30 day countdown for the CA to validate starting the day they sign the green card? because i was having a tough time understanding exactly what jam327 meant by this: and exactly what BUTCH meant by this: and then posting this: thanks, dilla
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) rock & a hard place... In the one mythological story, there was a water passage where on the one shore were creatures which would eat the crews of the ships, and on the other shore were jagged rocks which would sink the ships that passed through too close to them. Since Credit Reporting is a collection activity, the CA wants to do anything that they can to keep that type of collection activity available to them. However, 1692(b) says that when they receive the validation letter, all collection activity must cease until they obtain and MAIL the validation. The CA wants to do anything in their power to see that they can keep reporting the account. IF they do however, before they obtain and MAIL the validation, they've violated the law. SO, in order to comply with the law, they need to let the verification go without responding, which requires that the CRA delete the account. The only way to get the account back on after that is for them to MANUALLY submit it for re-insertion, and certify that the problem which was disputed has now been resolved. Which again, since reporting to a CRA is collection activity, they can't do until after they've obtained and MAILED the validation. The key part is MANUAL. Chances are if they need to do anything manually, they are more than likely to leave it alone. The whole part of the numbers game is that they want to expend as little effort as they can, to obtain the most $ that they can, so that they get the best ROI that they can.
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) The procedures request doesn't affect the data furnisher; it is to get from the CRA how they verified, if they did. Their response is USUALLY the same CANNED statement which you copied in the letter to them. Believe it or not that is Experian's alleged procedures response. In BUTCH's demand procedures thread, you should see where he says to work into the dispute itself the procedures request in HOPES that they will open another investigation. Ex however usually only allows you one chance, unless you can provide a smoking gun. Otherwise, they typically respond with only a "PREVIOUSLY INVESTIGATED" answer. From when the green card is signed by the CRA (not the CA) is when the 30 days begin. The validation letter to the CA is what puts the CA on notice that they must cease collection activities until after you are provided with the validation by them. Now, as to why you want to start the letter with a statement that you have never heard from them. This is the beginning of your paper trail with the CA. If the CA never contacted you, then they could not have provided you with your consumer mini-miranda rights notice. Therefore, if the 30 day period was an absolute deadline to use-em or lose-em (which it isn't; but some CA's will try to say that it is.) you couldn't have used em or losed em because they never offered them to you to use or lose. You can't use or lose something which hasn't even been offered to you to use, even though you are entitled to it by law.
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) jam237 thank you so much for your reply! i'm gonna mail both the validation to the CA and the procedures request to EX tomorrow. i'll be making sure that they stop reporting the exact same day they sign the green card. thanks again for your help guys!!!! the clock starts ticking some time next week, i'll keep you updated. dilla
Re: Re: Experian's VERIFICATION (ha!) jam327 i just read my other thread where you wrote: i'll do that instead of mailing both out at the same time. i'll also use some more of your advice: thanks again for all your help! dilla
