Fannie Mae Is Being Sued

Am I missing it, where does race factor in?

Sassy

 

when in doubt pull the race card and see if they will settle out of court to avoid negitive publicity. I could get a payday because I have bad credit and am an ethnic minority?

 

Search for the words "credit scoring disparate impact."

 

Well dep,

I was hoping that wasn't the reason but admit that is what I thought as well.

Probably I'll get strung up, as soon as I click on reply, but I'm going to anyway.

I've had this same conversation with my 18-year old son, just on his own and trying to get a foot-hold on life, working, grants and scholarships, credit, etc.

There was a day when being a young white male in America could have been considered a perk. I'm not so naive as to think that discrimination still doesn't exist but mostly there are laws and processes in place to right that wrong swiftly.

I think we've swung too far the other way, there's no balance -- no equal playing field, which I thought was the point. A young, healthy, white male in America today has obstacles in his path because he is white. They have to find the opportunities and make it happen, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not a fair and equal playing field.

I'm not even really sure white is the majority anymore, there have been some studies that indicate otherwise publicized. For a society that has tried to right some wrongs, I think we are now contributing to them.

Says me.

BTW, everyone's font reads the same to me on this board, I don't know who is black, white, brown, yellow or green -- nor do I care -- I'm just starting to wonder where color stops and human being begins.

Sassy

 

I'm curious about this, Greg, and I will search but haven't yet.

This is what you were asking David (Wells Fargo) to clarify, yes? I was waiting for his answer as well with the specific law.

I know the last I had mortgage dealings, the broker told me he was required to fill in the information based on his OBSERVATION if I refused to disclose!

Sassy

 

Since I love playing devil's advocate, here I go.....

I noticed that everyone jumped in and either implied or boldly stated that the plaintiff was playing the race card. Frankly, the article is a little sparse on facts so how can everyone jump to that conclusion? Maybe a statistician was employed to show bias based on race before the lawsuit was filed? Who knows, but in reading the article, we have no idea on what basis she is making her claim. What ever happened to the benefit of the doubt?

I find it odd also that Topic A around here is ALWAYS about FICO scores and how unfair they are and how they don't make sense. This person sues because she says they're unfair and all of a sudden she's wrong and FICO is right? Let's at least be consistent in our arguments.

And before anyone asks....I'm a white male.

My 2 cents.....

 

Dear white male in Texas ;-)

The details are sparse, nodding, that's what I want to know.

However, it doesn't mention anything other than african-american.

If denied a mortage at one rate but approved at a higher rate -- how would you find out the reason for denial, the real reason, I'm doubting anyone puts as a reason: race or ethnic origin.

If everything else is equal and you are purple -- can you then use color as the reason because nothing else makes sense or by process of elimination no other reasons are valid?

I know they collect the information.

That's what I want to know -- where did the race allegation come from?

What would lead you to believe it was race, what is that based on?

I've done the mortgage thing twice, two houses = 4 times, and I'm really trying to recall something in the process that you would be able to base that claim on.

Scoring isn't fair and isn't supposed to factor in color. However, I've noticed though that geographical demographics are collected -- if you can use the demographics to deduce that a neighborhood is composed mostly of purple people, is that what it's based on?

Sassy (Purple female in Arizona)

BTW: The article says Fannie Mae's system assigns you to a classification based on credit score -- the suit is for discrimination and asks the court to bar Fannie Mae from using scoring systems that are racially discriminating.

That has to be based on something. How do you jump from score xxx = 6% and score xxx = 10% that would lead you to believe there's a color factor in there?

Editing:

"I find it odd also that Topic A around here is ALWAYS about FICO scores and how unfair they are and how they don't make sense. This person sues because she says they're unfair and all of a sudden she's wrong and FICO is right? Let's at least be consistent in our arguments."

That's a big assumption -- I didn't read she was wrong and fico was right anywhere.

Sassy

 

It does appear to be based on geographical demographics! zip code!

I searched Greg, this is the only thread I found. It's a good one too! Thank you!

http://consumers.creditnet.com/straighttalk/board/showthread.php?threadid=15551

Sassy

 

The issue of discrimination is far more complicated than this. For one thing, white males make far more money than do members of other ethnicities. Or, take a look at the board of directors for any large corporation and see how many faces belong to someone other than white males. Or the senior management of almost any company. Or the members of any high-paying profession, for that matter. If there are more obstacles in the path of white males than in other groups, those white males sure do seem to be doing a hell of a job overcoming them.

I'm not even really sure white is the majority anymore, there have been some studies that indicate otherwise publicized.

The definition of a minority has nothing to do with numerical superiority; otherwise women would be a "majority." In South Africa, whites never had a numerical majority; however they were very much the majority race there, anyway.

In particular, though, this statement,

A young, healthy, white male in America today has obstacles in his path because he is white. They have to find the opportunities and make it happen, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not a fair and equal playing field.

causes problems for me. I happen to be black, and I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone else was black. If you want to know what "obstacles in your path" are, try growing up in an environment where there is massive unemployment, and an ingrained attitude that you cannot succeed, no matter how gifted you are or hard you try. And then go out in the world with that handicap, and hear people say things like, "all you have to do is get a job and keep it," and other platitudes that sound wonderful and practical, but do not offer much to people who are conditioned from birth to believe that a good job or a great education come along about as often and in the same way as a winning lottery ticket.

The issue of discrimination is complex, and deserves to be treated that way.


As to this suit specifically, I'm very curious about it. The CEO of Fannie Mae is a black man if I remember correctly, Franklin Rains or something like that (too lazy to look it up). Of course, that doesn't mean a whole lot, but having the guy testify in the suit would be a tough thing for a plaintiff to overcome in a suit claiming racism.

 

You are much more eloquent then I, Bunter. Very well put.

 

Bunter,

causes problems for me. I happen to be black, and I grew up in a neighborhood where everyone else was black. If you want to know what "obstacles in your path" are, try growing up in an environment where there is massive unemployment, and an ingrained attitude that you cannot succeed, no matter how gifted you are or hard you try. And then go out in the world with that handicap, and hear people say things like, "all you have to do is get a job and keep it," and other platitudes that sound wonderful and practical, but do not offer much to people who are conditioned from birth to believe that a good job or a great education come along about as often and in the same way as a winning lottery ticket.

Are you telling me the problems you described above are exclusive to black neighborhoods -- none of these things occur in white neighborhoods or any other neighborhoods in between?

Sassy

 

I agree with Bunter, the issue of discrimination is very complicated, and being a white male I can not relate to the pain and mental anguish associated with it. I abhor those who would look down on others based one the color of their skin, religious choice, or sexual orientation.

On the other hand in a situation where we are given very little information, it looks like the plaintiff in this case qualified at a different institution for a higher rate, could that be based on their credit history?

I am not the FICO sales pitch guy, but I feel that this is a crappy system that we all battle against, and it doesn't take skin color in to the calculations. Yes FICO stinks, but it is not a race issue.

If this person had gone to another financial institution and qualified for a 6.% Interest rate, I would be the first to stand up and say " hey something is wrong here". what I discerned is that they took their business elsewhere and got a crappy rate.

Then runs to the court system to sue sue sue! With the only straw that they could grab at.

 

No, but they occur on a massive scale in minority communities, and so, are a much greater problem for minorities. And it is indisputable that most minorities got in this position as a result of racism (otherwise how do you explain it without making racist statements?). I have seen the exact same problem in certain segments of the white community as well, as has pretty much everyone else (Deliverance, anyone?).
The situation now is much better than it was even when I was growing up, but the damage was done lone ago, and will take some time to undo.

 

Sassy

i love you to death.. . but i'm kind of disappointed in you. Everyone grows up with disadvantages, white, black, too short, too tall, too dumb, too smart, not atheletic, not musical, rich, poor, bad credit, good credit, two parents, one parents. Aren't you playing the same race card when you say your son is now a minority. Of course, he is! How many other people is he exactly like?

Everyone else--
No Matter what race anyone is, Be glad you are in America! You could be a white farmer in Zimbabwe (do your research), or piss poor Russia, or Black in Uganda, or Asian in Vietnam or Kashmir. Get it. No matter what your race, you are in the best country for "that" race. That's if you even care about such things.
I'm prejudiced against jerks, a**holes, and mean people. Unfortunately, i fall into that category sometimes.

Humblemarc

 

Have you been watching the news lately? Are you keeping up with current events? Probably 99% of the corporate and wall street crooks are white or jewish. These scum have stolen BILLIONS of dollars from shareholders and employees who have lost their retirement. Yet they'll get off with a slap of the wrist. If they were black they would be executed.
BTW I am a white male, my wife is an asian immigrant and yes she gets discriminated by scumbags all the time.

 

awwwwwww marc,

Don't be disappointed and I love you to death too, that's just the point, we are all people and we all have only to work with, what God gave us to work with.

That's how it was with my son, his generation isn't mine, that's how the conversation started in fact, LOL, there were no scholarships available for plain ole white boys, only minorities.

And no, I don't think that was a race card, that is what it was. So that opportunity wasn't there for him, however, you find existing opportunities or create them, make it happen!

That is just what he is doing and that doesn't have anything to do with color.

Sassy

 

ah yes, not quite right. White, maybe, jewish, i don't think so. But you do bring up a valid point. The real problem, the powers that be, are 90% white.(look at the 100 richest people in the world.) That's who everyone should be angry at, the top 1% of the world that hold 99% of the money, therefore, the power. The real powers that be, (whatever color they are) are who make up the laws and rules behind the scenes, forever keeping power within their families, and keepiing the majority of us misinformed and economic slaves. These are the CEO's of major companies, etc, that encourage the CRA's to keep consumers from having accurate reports, prevent cures for major diseases from being found, so they can charge thousands of dollars for life-extending drugs, etc. Ever read the "Treaty of Rome"

humblemarc

 

ok Bunter,

Fair enough, thank you!

I was not simplifying the complexities of discrimination. I am concerned that as a society we have come far in eliminating overt discrimination and created unintended consequences.

It bothers me the people play the race card -- whether that is what happened in this case or not, I can't say, it really isn't clear.

As a black man with a different perspective than mine, I could never pretend to know your perspective, I've not worn your shoes, but I am curious if you find that as bothersome as I do?

My problem is that instead of halting discrimination we have found another way to accomodate it. We as a society, me and you, black and white. My kids should have the same opportunities as your kids, what they do with them is another matter.

I think it is as wrong to use race when race wasn't a factor, as wrong as it is to discriminate in the first place.

That said, having read the thread posted above that Greg suggested on credit scoring disparate impact, it looks like there can be made a good case for the scoring systems discriminating in a backdoor way.

Maybe it's just too idealistic thinking that one day decisions and judgments will be based on people as people.

My blood is red, I'm pretty sure yours is too.

Sassy

 

That's what i thought you believed!!! Can we all sing "kumbaya" now!

humblemarc