This isn't a credit card related matter; it's a checking account issue, but I know that you guys here tend to have the answers when it comes to this sort of stuff! I have to handle this matter today, so if anyone here can help, I cannot tell you how much I would appreciate it! Okay, here's the scoop: My mother has two checking accounts at B of A. One is a small business account, which has my name on it as well since I primarily run the business, and her personal account which is joint with dear old Dad. The business account is only one year old, but they have had their joint account at B of A for over 25 years. So...back in October of 2001, we set up an account with B of A merchant services to process credit cards for our business. There was a charge for the credit card processing software, which was supposed to be divided into three monthly installments. Well, merchant services didn't pull the installments out of our account like they were supposed to for November or December, and I'll grant that we weren't "on the ball" with paying much attention to the fact that they didn't. I just assumed they'd take the first installment soon (maybe they just hadn't gotten everything processed yet to charge us), and once we saw that first installment come out then they would follow with the other two. What they actually did was wait until the end of January and then try to take out the whole amount. It wasn't there to take. So...they didn't call our business to let us know that they'd been unable to get the money, they didn't send any letters saying, "Hey, we tried to debit your account and can't do it"; they just searched for other accounts with either of our names on them and found enough money in Mom and Dad's personal checking account, and they took it from there. This debit of their account took place in the middle of February. When Mom tried to take cash from an ATM and couldn't get it, she called me having a fit. "Find out what's wrong with my account!" She always makes me call banks and credit cards and say I'm her. I think she's afraid of the phone. Anyway, I called and said I was her, and B of A told me that merchant services had debited her account for this huge amount of money. I called merchant services, who told me for the first time that they were trying to take out this money, and told me that since it wasn't available in our business account they just took it from her and Dad's checking. Yikes! In the few days between the time they did this debit and the time we found out about it, Mom and Dad had checks bouncing all over the place. NSF charges mounted to about $300.00. Well, we took the money from our business that we had known we were going to have to pay for the software, and we reimbursed Mom and Dad for that, but we just didn't have the money to cover them for all those NSF charges. Thus, their account remained overdrawn. Mom let it sit that way. They have a credit union account, and they just used that one for everything. She shouldn't have let it sit, but she did, thinking that this was a business-related problem and in my capacity of running the business, I should just "take care of it". Well, I couldn't "just take care of it" because we didn't have the money to pay those NSF fees. She continued to let the account sit overdrawn because she knew that their tax refund was going to be directly deposited into it, and she figured it would all be taken care of at that point. I was concerned about letting it sit that way, but she seemed to think that she'd had the account for so long, and since B of A wasn't saying anything or calling her, they wouldn't close it. She wasn't so naive as to think they would *never* close it, but just that they'd start calling first, and since they hadn't, she thought there was still time. She was wrong. The account stayed overdrawn for a total of six weeks. B of A didn't send nasty letters or call or anything; they just closed the account as of last Friday. We just found this out yesterday. Now she's wanting me to get on the phone and demand that they re-open the account and explain to them that the tax money is going to be deposited in there any day now, and if they want her to bring in the cash to cover the overdraft right now she will do so. She thinks it's going to be that simple; I don't think so. I haven't even told Mom yet about Chexsystems or the ramifications of that. She doesn't know anything about the existence of such an agency; she isn't they type of person who *would* know. Dear old Dad in his content little homeowner-responsible-good-credit-having world will have a fit if he hears he is on any such system, and he will be on it as well. So, before I go calling the bank, does anyone here have any thoughts on what I should or should not say? Is there any hope of getting this account re-opened, as Mom seems so confident can be done? I don't want to get on the phone without being prepared to handle this is as "planned" a manner as possible. Want to say all the right things to get the situation resolved, if that is even possible. I dread the idea that is not possible, especially since she really regards this whole thing as being my fault. HELP!
Best thing to do is go into the bank and explain the whole situation.. and tell them to open the account so the money will be in there OR put money in right now and when the tax is put in there, then take your money out. Guaranteed the account will go to Chex and be there for 5 years.. you have a chance to save it before it goes that far. You must talk to someone with power at the bank tho.. good luck.
B 0f A is notorious for this kind of stuff. IF you can prove that there was an error in anyway IE: BofA didn't debit the Merchant account when they were supposed to. BofA could've easily had the money if they would have done what they were supposed to. BofA told you something totally different than what happen. --- I would go after BofA. If none of the above can be said then it's chalked up to tough luck I guess. BofA is really nasty about stuff like this. I had to argue with them a month ago when their direct deposit system was broken. Bounced 14 checks and took my whole paycheck. Proceeded to tell me I had to pay the fees. What was worse was that after they cleared it all up, they hadn't credited me the fees they charged and guess what? I bounced a few more checks. Their response: We credited the money, it will be there, but you should have had more money in your account. My response, there was never a reason for you to take money out for something that wasn't my fault in the first place. BTW - I'm still recovering from their mistakes a month later. BOFA - 2 / ME - 1
Merchant Services illegally stole the money from the account and the bank illegally let them have it . Get onto both of them and make them straighten this mess out: Sue them if they don't!
I would def. go into the branch with her and explain the situation.. of course you can't be her when you go, but let them know your mother is old and could not make it.. best thing is to go in together however. You should resolve the issues now instead.. otherwise the consequences will be worse.. being in chex for 5 years, not being able to open a checkign account, etc. Plus bank managers tend to be better when spoken to in person..
Nightowl, Under the ACH EFT laws: Merchants with signage or that notify you by mail (monthly statements or bounced check notice) can debit your account without your specific written permission. This is a one time debit only, unless it's for a bounced check, then it can be re-presented twice. However, the representment can only be for the face amount of the check; fees or other charges require a specific written authorization. I really HATE the process for electronic check conversion and collection; the burden is on US, AFTERWARDS, par for the course as a consumer, I suppose. It is relatively new for the consumers anyway, but it's been in the works for a lot of years. The FTC just last month issued consumer bulletins about it. Merchants can debit your account for ongoing transactions, IN THE SAME AMOUNT EACH MONTH, like for a mortgage payment, only with your specific written authorization. They HAVE to debit your account as authorized. For you that would mean, in the monthly amount and at the time you specifically, and pre-authorized in writing, authorized for the installment debit. You have 60-days from the date of the statement from the bank, showing the debits, to challenge them as errors or unauthorized, whatever. The bank is supposed to investigate AND in the meantime CREDIT those challenged debits to your account while the investigation is pending. That's the nutshell version, there's lots of details specific to things like a debit creating a wave of NSF checks, action that can and can't be taken during the investigation, cancellations... I'd get a statement right away and send to the bank certified/rrr, as well as hand-deliver, a notice specifically listing the challenged debits and certifying under penalty of perjury that they were either unauthorized or incorrect and demanding an investigation. By seperate letter, explain what happened to help them get it right during their investigation. If you call the bank, follow it up with the paper! I'd also send the same to the merchant, putting them on notice that THEY did not abide by the terms of your written authorization for a debit, making it unauthorized; that you've notified the bank of the same; have requested an investigation and that they are subject to damages for their actions under Federal laws. I figured this out the hard way, like all things worth knowing, I guess, LOL. What about unauthorized ACH entries or unauthorized electronic checks? Regulation E limits liability. Regulation E error resolution procedures apply to the amount of time a bank must give provisional credit to a customer. The consumer has an automatic right to re-credit under NACHA Operating Rules if they sign an affidavit, which states that the transaction was unauthorized. What information needs to be shown on the consumerâ??s periodic statement? Regulation E requires a periodic statement on accounts debited by a transaction covered by Regulation E. The electronic check is a Regulation E transaction. What warranties do the financial institutions make that the payment is authorized? The retailerâ??s financial institution warrants under the NACHA Operating Rules that the payment has been authorized. Itâ??s up to the financial institution to work with the retailer to ensure that the retailer gets its customerâ??s proper written authorization. These links should help you: http://www.nacha.org/ http://www.cardreport.com/laws/credit-laws.html http://www.federalreserve.gov/Regulations/regref.htm#j http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1400.html http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/elbank.htm http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/1693c.html http://www.paytips.org/conrights.htm Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!! Sassy
Sassy, Thanks much for the info, but keep in mind that this was not a merchant debiting the account, but our own credit card processing center who tried to debit our business account for fees, and then when unable to, turned to Mom's joint personal account. No letter was sent and no calls were made prior to doing this. Do these same rules still apply under these circumstances?
IMHO: Merchant services was only authorized to take money from one account. They took money from another. I looked at BOFA terms for merchant accounts and could find nothing that says they can take money from any accounts you have, therefore, BOFA should've shut off your merchant account and not touched the other accounts. Lesson learned, never have a merchant account and a checking account at the same back. It's a pain when you want to transfer funds and have to do it from two different banks but in the long run you'll be alot safer. I would call BOFA and explain that there was no authorization to take money out of the other account and that they need to return that money to the account and credit the NSF fees. With a bit of harassing they will see their ways.
Nightowl, I'm sorry I included my rant on the collection of checks, covered under the same. It was a real eye opener to read, and what occurred to me, beyond my chapped butt on the check collection, was really how dangerous this could be for people just like your parents!!!!!!! Yes, the laws still apply, they cover in general debits made to accounts made electronically -- electronic is the key word. Sassy
Okay, here is the latest... I got a copy of Mom's bank statement showing that the intial debit that caused all these problems was made on 2/07/02. This means that we are beyond the 60 days within which we can dispute this debit. Should we send a letter disputing it anyway? Here is the plan I had formed in my mind after reading the posts today: I was going to call the B of A branch (as "Mom") and say that I had sent a letter disputing this debit to both B of A and Merchant Services, and that I don't know why they haven't received it yet, but it is on the way and I *do* dispute this debit. I was going to claim that we hadn't taken care of the overdraft yet because we just assumed that as soon as they got the dispute letter that would take care of it. Then I was going to go into the story about what happened and explain it all. *Then* I was going to run like hell to the Post Office and get that dispute letter in the mail. Now, however, I realize that we are beyond the time frame for disputing. Should I use this plan anyway? As far as the 60 days goes, do they enforce that rigidly? Will they look at the postmark date to see that it was too late? What do you all think? I appreciate any repsonse from anyone who is online right now, since I am going to start making my phone calls and putting into action whatever plan I go with in about an hour... Tick tock tick tock... THANKS ALL OF YOU!
I would suggest going to the branch and speaking with the manager in person before taking any further action. Explain the situation and be honest. Use diplomacy. You want BofA to be your friend today. A sympathetic manager could help you resolve this issue for your parents before it goes any further. Give it a try. Good luck.
Unfortunately I am going to have to try his on the phone first. My Mom is insistent that I take care of this for her, and that means pretending to be her, and that means phone. You and I understand what's at stake here, and that it isn't so easily resolved, but she doesn't and unless I have no luck on the phone, I don't have the heart to tell her. All she has to say for now is, "Yeah, yeah, call 'em up and take care of this." I'm not very hopeful, but I am going to try that first, and if it's not successful I'll have to explain to her that she must go into the branch. Everybody please cross your fingers...and toes...and eyes...
Who said 60 days? BOA? Bump them! In any event, it's supposed to be from date of notification. If they are just telling you now, the clock starts now. After all, how were you supposed to guess that their illegal debiting of a private account was the cause of your problems. If you came in to complain or called to complain on a certain date, you started the dispute process immediately and they've just been tardy about fixing it. Either way, tell 'em to stuff their 60 day dispute period! Dancer
My checking account says 60 days from the "DATE OF RECEIPT OF THIS STATEMENT" Not 60 days from the DEPOSIT/WITHDRAWAL date...
