Wolpoff and Abramson

Discussion in 'Credit Talk' started by bg, Mar 21, 2003.

  1. bg

    bg Well-Known Member

    I sent them a validation letter. They sent me a copy of the signature page of the application I signed. What do I do now. I used the validation letter from this board that requested that they answer certain questions. They did not address any of the questions, just sent a copy of the signature part of the application.
     
  2. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    Many, many people today are beating their heads against the walls trying to figure out how to effectively do battle with W&A and have had little or no success so far.

    I believe that there is good reason why they have had so little success and that is that even though they send validation demands W&A totally ignores them and just goes quickly for an arbitration award. They furthermore have an advantage because they can demand that all problems be resolved through arbitration and not through recourse to the courts.

    On the other hand I tend to believe that while any disputes about the debt can be forced into arbitration where they will win every time there is no such requirement for their violations of the law. I may be wrong about that but be that as it may, nobody I know of has even tried to take them to court for anything.

    I do think that there is no way to fight the arb award they will go get but I also think that it is going to take somebody taking them to court on FDCPA violations or even filing a complaint for arbitration with NFA in order to get anywhere.

    So far everybody has just sat on their hands quaking in fear so to speak and have done nothing to launch any offensive against them and until people do that there isn't going to be much of a hope of winning.

    I believe that demand for validation and then estoppel is still the right way to go it is most certainly going to take a whole lot more than just that to ever hope to get anywhere with them.
     
  3. ms6073

    ms6073 Well-Known Member

    You know Bill, as usual, has some good insight and advice but I have to ask - is this debt yours? Do you owe the money? If this is not your debt (identity theft) then you should be seeking help from the State Attorney General's office and law enforecment.

    On the other hand if the debt is yours, despite everyones resarch and hard work with regard to becomming a more knowledgable credit consumer, occasionally, you just might find that you have to back track and actually deal with the CA in trying to broker an amicable setlement! Now if you dont want to try the settlement route, then based on Bill's observations, I would say that it is time for you to retain an attorney in anticpation of an arbitration hearing!

    Michael
     
  4. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    Brokering amicable deals with them is what it is all about. One does not want to go to war with them if it is at all possible to avoid it. But one should also be well prepared to do so if need be. It is exactly the same as it is with diplomacy on the international front. Try diplomacy until is fails and then bring on the troops if necessary.
    I tend to think that in order to hope to win it is going to take a whole lot more than just your average everyday attorney to get anywhere. It is going to take someone with specialized legal knowledge and experience in that field.

    Just to show you how true that can be, I have several attorneys who are taking my course for the simple reason that they don't have the training and expertise to be able to deal with the financial problems they are faced with. Their expertise is in other areas of law and not in consumer affairs.

    Every one of them have been on creditnet extensively and other message boards as well.
     
  5. jdog0411

    jdog0411 Well-Known Member

    Am I missing something here? What makes this firm so much more special than any other scumbag collector? Because they try to use arbitration to fill their pockets?

    I would deal with them in the same way I would deal with any other collector. Their choice of tactics to collect doesn't make them immune to the FDCPA.

    I don't think that the issue here is the overwhelming power of this particular collector, it is the fact that they seem to provide validation in most cases when it is demanded from them. If any collector can validate, than that makes the situation much more grave for the debtor. Once that happens, FDCPA violations are few and far between and settlement with the collector is usually the best course of action. That is true whether it is W&A or Joe Blow Collection agency.

    The methods that we use to fight collectors usually rely on the fact that most collectors break the law in some way when trying to collect. We use that fact to give us leverage to fight them in court, or preferrably have them back down and go for easier pickings somewhere else.

    Referring to your original post, a signed contract is not the only thing needed for full validation, but it is a start. Validation usually consists of a signed application, full statement of account, etc. Although most courts will find a signed application pretty compelling evidence that the debt is yours and they side with the CA. If they provided the signed application, I would think hard about what steps I would take from here. Personally, I would try to work with them to get a settlement arrangement and try to work in a deal for deletion of any tradeline that exists for the account on my reports. Even if that doesn't fly, you would at least stand a better chance of staying out of court and getting a possible judgement or arbitration demand against you.

    Take it from me, ANY CA can be beat if they don't follow the law. Everyone told me that Arrow Financial was untouchable. They failed to validate and screwed around with me royally for almost a year. I sued them in fedeal court and I am one of the few people they have ever settled out of court with. They are fighters, but if you follow correct procedure and stick to your guns, you can win these battles. Even against W&A.
     
  6. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    I'm afraid that I have to disagree with a couple of the things you have said here.
    I think so.
    Not because they use it but rather how they use it.
    I tend to doubt that.
    That may be open to debate.
    I haven't noticed that to be the case either.
    Can't say that I can agree with that either. I used to think that myself but then that turns out to be just like any other situation. When the going gets tough the tough get going.
    Actually that's not the case at all. In fact they get more and more frequent.
    Again, I respectfully disagree. But then it is a point that happens so seldom that it is hardly worth argueing about.
    Again, I must respectfully disagree with you. Now then, let's get down to the details and I think you will begin to understand. I've never heard of any instance where W&A validated a debt yet nor even bothered to attempt to do it. Personally I've only had a couple of instances of dealing with them but I belong to a couple of other forums where they are hated and deeply feared and many of the posters in those forums are a whole lot more knowledgeable than most posters here by a long, long ways.

    The thing that makes W&A so feared is that experience has proven that if you demand validation of them they immediately go to NAF and get an arbitration award and if you try to sue them they argue that you can't do that but rather have to take the issue to arbitration.

    So far I haven't seen anybody who claimed that they actually took them to US Federal Court to fight the issue but it may well have been done by attorneys who do not post to any forums that I know of. I do tend to think that W&A may be correct when they say that all disputes have to be arbitrated but my thinking is that while disputes with the OC about the debt may have to be arbitrated I want to believe that their violations of FDCPA don't have that same protection. Personally, if I had a problem with them that is what I would do. Let them argue their position in Federal court. The suit would not be about the debt at all but rather why they didn't validate at all, much less in a timely manner. That's what its going to take to beat that game unless one can argue that arbitration is unfair and abusive and there is a growing trend towards doing just that as well.

    And then to make matters worse they seem to sell the debt to another collector immediately after the arbitration is done and that collector immediately moves to reduce the award to a judgment. The whole thing is carried out with such lightning speed that the poor debtor don't stand much of a chance.

    The whole operation is carried out about like our attack on Iraq. Its happening with such overwhelming force and lightning speed that the enemy just don't stand a chance. They don't have the knowledge and experience to know how to deal with a line of attack helicopters, fast moving tanks followed by a wave of foot soldiers so they become disorientated and demoralized and just give up. They really didn't want to fight in the first place and then get hit with all of that firepower. So they just give up and lose.

    And it is much the same with W&A. And as a result they are getting a reputation of being real mean motorscooters.

    So far I've just had two actual cases where I have had to come up with the solutions. One of them was a case where another very famous glueru advised the guy to simply send them a full Cease & Desist and be done with them. Seems that is his stock answer for dealing with collection agencies.ROFLMAO.

    Well, the poor fellow did just that and then W&A sent him a letter stating that since he didn't want to deal with them they were going to arb immediately and without further ado. That was when he realized he needed some serious help so he came to me. I advised him to call them up and beg for mercy and tell them that he had listened to some nut on the internet and tell them who it was so they would understand how it happened that he did such a crazy thing.

    They accepted his apology and then we went to work on them. As soon as I got the situation under control for him we demanded validation and in the end we found a sort of a loophole that at least appeared to be sufficient to kill them so I advised him to seek an attorney and he did just that. Seems the attorney agreed with me (and him) and I haven't heard from him since so I don't know what has been going on since then.

    His loophole was a bit unique and should be pretty easily winnable in court. Seems he had paid the debt a few years back and still had the proof that he had done so. He didn't realize that at first but after he got to working with the deal he suddenly woke up and realized that fact. That's when he went to an attorney.

    So what I did wasn't really all that stunning, I did at least cure the evil done him by that famous glueru and get him started on the right path. What I told him to do in regards to W&A at least put a small hitch in their git-along and gave him time to think.

    Had it not been for that W&A would have steam rollered him right on into arbitration and judgment on a debt he already paid years ago.

    So it is their steamroller tactics against those who have no experience or knowledge in dealing with them that makes them so feared more than anything else is the way I see it.

    Fear and lack of knowledge will beat you every time. Add the bad advice from some of these so called experts who are so respected just because they have a radio show and a website makes the matter even worse.
     
  7. jdog0411

    jdog0411 Well-Known Member

    I'm going to leave that post pretty much alone, but it appeared to me that you were questioning my experience and/or knowledge about these situations. I can hold my own Bill.
     
  8. Butch

    Butch Well-Known Member

     
  9. toothfairy

    toothfairy Well-Known Member

    I need to interject something here and I don't really want to hi jack this thread, but this thread is scaring the cr*p out of me.

    Here's our situation:

    I had a cc with Direct Merchants Bank that was charged of in 12/02. Immediately the debt was sold to, you guessed it, W&A. They sent me a letter stating that they now had the debt and if I did not dispute the debt in 30 days blah blah.

    OK so I immediately fire off a validation letter in Jan. 03. It is now March and I haven't heard from them at all except for one phone call in late Jan after they received my validation request. I never spoke to them but I have their number on my caller ID with the date and time they called.

    Basically since I had not heard from since then, I figured it to be a good sign. Obviouly I'm very wrong. They have so far not reported to any CRA. But should I be doing something about this?


    HELP!
     
  10. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    No, Butch. Not Ben Dover. Its been a while since I have reviewed any of his stuff but if I remember correctly he seems to be a lot more knowledgeable than the one I was referring to.

    And no, I'm not going to get into any guessing games about who it is that I refer to. Doing so can only lead to problems and I don't need that and neither does the board.

    So let's just drop that line.
     
  11. toothfairy

    toothfairy Well-Known Member

    Bill or anyone re: my previous question? I'm freaking out here!
     
  12. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    In my personal opinion no debt collector should ever be let go more than 30 days after the green card date from validation at which time the next letter should immediately go out. I use my own estoppel now which is very, very different from the one that has always been used and advocated here but either way, I do think that the estoppel route is probably the best type of letter to use next after validation. One needs to keep a careful set of records so that they know where they are at all the time and one should use a calendar such as the 8 1/2 by 11 inch spiral bound "AT-A-GLANCE" series of calendars commonly available in places like Office Depot or Staples or maybe even Wal-Mart or Target or whatever store. These calendars have squares beside each date to keep notes in and the backs are blank so you can write notes up there too. Many posters are familiar with the format of Privacyguard.com where it shows each of the 3 CRAs and the checkmarks for inquiries in each column. The name of the creditor is listed in each line. I like to use that format to keep track of each creditor and which CRA they are listed on.

    I really like privacyguard and recommend it highly because I can sit down with a person and we can go over their scores and their problems and we can see very easily what we need to do to improve their scores. But the important point here is to keep good records so you always know exactly where you are.
    I tend to think you are very wrong. I think it really makes no difference. I know that they can be very dangerous and are very capable of going for arb at any time. If they do you are going to need a solid and concrete plan of action and more than just a couple of violations to hope to defeat them. A lot more.

    I hate to scare you and believe me I am not trying to scare you so you buy something from me or anyone else. But I believe that you should be looking for a good attorney and I would start looking for someone from the Trial Lawyers Association website. tlja.com or whatever it is.
    Its probably too early to actually contact any of them but they do seem to have some very valid information and cases on their web site so I would be studying those cases so you get some background information and experience and I believe you should have a list of contacts ready to go from their site so you can jump if the time comes. I would not panic by any stretch of the imagination but I would be much more concerned than you seem to be right now.
    I think you should be moving them along much faster than you are now. Never let a bill collector be in the drivers seat. The only thing I can think of that would be worse would be to have a terrorist pilot in the "drivers seat" of a Boeing 747 and all the passenger seats full. (LOL)
     
  13. toothfairy

    toothfairy Well-Known Member

    The 30 days after the green card was Feb 15th. I guess I have waited too long. Sometimes you just hope things will go away. Should I be sending the Estoppel now? Do I risk them reporting to the CRA's. I can't really afford to let that happen now as I need a new car in the next month and my scores are getting better. I don't want to take another hit.

    My DH's attitude is get the car first and then start hitting them with stuff. Any ideas?
     
  14. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    First of all, sometimes things like this are best handled on the basis of what I like to call "gut level feelings" and if so the results have to be lived with whatever they may be. Life's like that sometimes. So even though I tell you what I think you still have to live with the consequences and are therefore the one who has to make the final judgment call. You may want to take what I have to say and then sleep on it, discuss it with the Lord and your loved ones and make the judgment call.
    Not necessarily. And if you have then so be it. No use crying over spilled milk.
    I think so.
    They aren't really supposed to until they validate. But the major point to consider is this. Just exactly what will you do about it if they do report illegally? The answer probably would be that you would have to sue them for the transgression. If you are not ready, willing and able to do just that then you may want to tread lightly. It is a certainty that FDCPA or FCRA violation arguments isn't going to cut any ice with the arb board.
    It's a judgment call then. If you decided to let sleeping dogs lie until the car was sitting in the garage I would not argue against that strategy. How to handle it has to be a judgment call as far as I am concerned.
    No, no ideas. Just the comment that I have heard a whole lot of ideas far less intelligent than that one. (LOL)
     
  15. toothfairy

    toothfairy Well-Known Member

    Thanks so much for the advice. I really appreciate it. When I read this post I started getting really nervous. I think since I've waited this long I will wait a couple more weeks to do anything. I did some figuring and it looks like we'll be going for the car in about 2-3 weeks.

    After that my Estoppel will be on it's way. I may be posting again at that time for more advice.

    Thanks for all of the valuable help Bill. It is much appreciated.
     
  16. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    My "gut level feeling" is that if you can get that car in the garage in 2-3 weeks they are not all that likely to get any reports on your credit that fast. I tend to think its a chance you ought to take.
     
  17. bg

    bg Well-Known Member

    At this point can I request full validation? They sent a copy of the signed application. What else should I be asking for. I did not receive this until a few days ago, but I sent out the request for validation on 17 Jan. If I can request full validation what should my next letter contain. Please help if can. I'm trying to clean up to qualify for a mortgage hopefully within the next 12-18 months. I hope to avoid any more negative items on my credit report.
     
  18. bbauer

    bbauer Banned

    They should have received your demand for validation not later than Jan. 21. In fact, that is the probable date that they did receive it. That means that on Feb. 22nd you sent out the estoppel letter and they would have received it on February 24th. and on March 11th your next letter should have gone out.

    They would have received it about March 14th and March 28th your next letter should be ready to go. That one would also give them 15 days to respond and if you do not receive any answer to that then on or about April 17th you should be all ready to file suit on them in US Federal Court for violations of the law.

    I presume you are well prepared to do just exactly that and on thet date?
     

Share This Page